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        riddles >> what am i >> Whether in winter's cold (hard)
        
(Message started by: aero_guy on Mar 28^th, 2003, 8:54pm)

Title: Whether in winter's cold (hard)
Post by aero_guy on Mar 28^th, 2003, 8:54pm

And the hard puzzle of round three, good luck.

Whether in winter's cold or summer's heat
My lady trails my first along the street.

My second figures in a certain nine;
One of a celebrated Roman line.

Scientists have a theory that my third
Makes music,-but it never has been heard.

A couple of my whole go to a ball;
And on my whole is room enough for all.

Hint: how to solve this kind of problem
"first" and "last" refer to syllables, and "whole" refers to the whole final answer. An example riddle is:

My first is dark;
My second round:
My whole may mark
A hate profound.

The answer is blackball. Black is dark, ball is round, blackball is what you do to exclude someone (like blacklisting them).

Title: Re: Whether in winter's cold (hard)
Post by Icarus on Mar 29^th, 2003, 9:59am

I suppose Pietro and Continuum would have to approach this one from a different direction than you and I. But then by a manner of speaking, Wowbagger and Towr would have to come at it from another direction as well.

Title: Re: Whether in winter's cold (hard)
Post by john lee on Apr 4^th, 2003, 5:48pm

having a little trouble with this one. didn't have to battle to much with the second part, but the rest is proving to be a greater challange. would appreciate a hint if it is consistent with the ethics of this page.

Title: Re: Whether in winter's cold (hard)
Post by Icarus on Apr 5^th, 2003, 7:12am

Here are three hints in increasing strength.

Hint 1: [hide] There are two possibilities for the 2nd syllable, both of which fit the 2nd couplet very well. If you have only found one of them, it may be that you have the wrong one.[/hide]
Hint 2: [hide] Couplet 3 refers to an historical phrase that you don't hear much these days, except in poetic references to old concepts.[/hide]
Hint 3: Certain useful information, that relates indirectly to this thread, is available here (http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~wwu/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=riddles_easy;action=display;num=1033400844)

Title: Re: Whether in winter's cold (hard)
Post by budderbear on Apr 5^th, 2003, 11:39am

sorry, but i cant see anything on the message except the link on the third hint. i appreciate the help.

Title: Re: Whether in winter's cold (hard)
Post by maryl on Apr 5^th, 2003, 12:13pm

Select the message with your mouse, and it will highlight it.

Title: Re: Whether in winter's cold (hard)
Post by Icarus on Apr 5^th, 2003, 12:32pm

Welcome to Wu's Den of Inquity! You will notice in the forums lots of "missing" areas in posts - and always JUST when they were getting to the good stuff.

Well - it's there. It has just been hidden (http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~wwu/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=riddles_suggestions;action=display;num=1043138466).

Title: Re: Whether in winter's cold (hard)
Post by budderbear on Apr 6^th, 2003, 5:22pm

thanks for the hints so far. this is fun and frustrating at the same time. for the second couplet ive come up with [hide] mars [/hide] . the other two i cant pin down. for the first my mind cant escape ideas such as shadow, hair, dog, etc.. but the phrase 'my lady trails my first..' seems to be self referential ie. the whole's lady trails the first part of the whole. for the third im trapped on notions such as sirens, stars and heavens. for some reason i cant get out of the box. sorry to be so bothersome but another push in the right direction would be appreciated. again thank you

Title: Re: Whether in winter's cold (hard)
Post by aero_guy on Apr 6^th, 2003, 6:19pm

See Icarus, I told you it was hard, even if it wasn't hard for you...

budderbear, wrong roman line, it is not "the whole's" lady, but any well-dressed woman, and you have the right general idea for the third but will not be able to get that part unless you happen to know the phrase.

Suggestions: figure out the roman line, then make guesses as to the first and try matching them to one of you roman nine. When you get the right combo you should be able to get the third part.

Title: Re: Whether in winter's cold (hard)
Post by Icarus on Apr 6^th, 2003, 8:45pm

I hadn't thought of mars myself. I suppose you chose it over the other planets because its only one syllable.
Here are two more hints, both of which are fairly strong:
Hint 1:[hide] Part of the 2nd couplet is literal.[/hide]
Hint 2:[hide] The information in the link I gave is necessary to understand my original post, not the puzzle itself.[/hide]

Title: Re: Whether in winter's cold (hard)
Post by aero_guy on Apr 7^th, 2003, 12:40am

Oh, that explains it! I didn't read the other post but I understand now. I was wondering how it related.

Title: Re: Whether in winter's cold (hard)
Post by maryl on Apr 7^th, 2003, 4:13pm

Ohhh-the insanity of it all-I MUST FOCUS; this is a toughy aeroguy-I bet you're laughing. :-/

Title: Re: Whether in winter's cold (hard)
Post by maryl on Apr 7^th, 2003, 4:48pm

I was thinking [hide]gown, or dress; or even scent for the first part, and all I come up with for the second is the Roman numeral IX, or Ceasar[/hide] I'm wondering what the phrase is, and how long this is.

Title: Re: Whether in winter's cold (hard)
Post by budderbear on Apr 7^th, 2003, 4:55pm

OK. so far the roman line in question im assuming refers to assimilating to a roman culture. as far as the first couplet is concerned the line 'whether in winters cold or summers heat' comes from Sun tzu but im not sure how that could prove to be relevant. other options were [hide] purse. ring, dress [/hide] . im studying for a kant test as well so this riddle is cooking the few brain cells i have left. sorry if im coming off a little dense. thanks once again for the help.

Title: Re: Whether in winter's cold (hard)
Post by Icarus on Apr 7^th, 2003, 6:42pm

I got this because I was familiar with the phrase to which the third couplet alludes - so the third syllable suggested itself to me immediately. The second couplet threw me for awhile, because I made the same mistake concerning it that Maryl has (sorry). Even when I realized what the first was, and what the whole word had to be (because it fit the last couplet so well), it took me a bit to break through my misconception and realize what the second couplet was really saying.

Title: Re: Whether in winter's cold (hard)
Post by Beau on Apr 8^th, 2003, 8:20am

As for the second couplet :

There were 9 total popes in the 20th Century. There were 9 total popes in the 19th Century. The longest reigning pope was Pope Pius IX who is the only pope that is 'the ninth'. So here's my question : If I'm 60 yards from the hole, do I go with the 9 iron or the sandwedge?

Oh yes, on a serious note, could 'Line' mean 'Saying'?

Title: Re: Whether in winter's cold (hard)
Post by aero_guy on Apr 8^th, 2003, 10:26am

You guys are getting closer. So far Maryl is on the right track on both the first and second parts. You don't have the right word for the first part but are close and note that the second part figures in a certain nine, but is not that nine itself. The cool part of the second stanza is that it approaches the answer from no less than four directions, very cool.

Title: Re: Whether in winter's cold (hard)
Post by wowbagger on Apr 8^th, 2003, 10:46am

Wild guess: [hide] hemisphere [/hide] ?
Not so sure whether this fits the last line, however.

Title: Re: Whether in winter's cold (hard)
Post by budderbear on Apr 8^th, 2003, 1:01pm

the answer i came up with was the same as above, but likewise i have the same concern. 'on my whole is room enough for all' for this clue seems to be a bit too vague. but hey i haven,t created a riddle as of yet so if this is the answer: good job aero guy. at the very least you twisted my mind into knots for a week. this was certianly entertaining so please keep up the good work guys and gals.

Title: Re: Whether in winter's cold (hard)
Post by Icarus on Apr 8^th, 2003, 5:33pm

Two hemispheres go together to form a ball. The is plenty of room for everyone in the northerm hemisphere alone (don't let the worrywarts fool you on this one - there is enough room in the city limits of Jacksonville, FL alone for every person in the world to stand, so there is definitely plenty of room for all).

The other clues:
The first syllable is hem. Which should be clear.
The second syllable is i. I is the 9th letter of the alphabet, and is "One" in the line of Roman numerals.
The third syllable is sphere. At the time of Copernicus, Kepler, Galileo, Astronomers were still convinced that the solar system was laid out precisely according to certain geometric proportions, and that there was an underlying harmony to the structure of the universe. They called it "The Music of the Spheres".

As for my reply, Pietro and Continuum are Brazilian, and almost certainly live in the southern hemisphere. Aero-guy and I are Americans and live in the northern hemisphere. By a figure of speech, we are all four in the "western hemisphere", unlike Europeans such as Towr and Wowbagger.

Title: Re: Whether in winter's cold (hard)
Post by Beau on Apr 8^th, 2003, 6:06pm

Couplet 3 refers to an historical phrase that you don't hear much these days, except in poetic references to old concepts. by Icarus.

Bro, I still don't see how this rang out to you. I'm trying to follow your logic, but I still don't see how you immediately look at couplet 3 and come up with [hide] sphere [/hide]

You explained it as a scientific idea, but you stated it's an uncommon poetic reference to old concepts? Which? or both? Wow, good job on solving the riddle first. I have no idea why Music of the Spheres came to mind though. So, I guess I'll go with the 9 iron.

Title: Re: Whether in winter's cold (hard)
Post by cho on Apr 8^th, 2003, 7:00pm

"Music of the Spheres" isn't really all that obscure. I too immediately knew what couplet three was referring to. It's not just for mathematicians. A number of classical composers based works on the concept. Strauss, Mahler, Holst especially, although he's less known. And it's becoming popular again in New Age music.

Title: Re: Whether in winter's cold (hard)
Post by wowbagger on Apr 9^th, 2003, 5:59am

To give you an impression of my progress:

I first noticed the riddle after Icarus's second post. Of course I was eager to solve it because I'm part of this MadMathematician's obscure allusion. ;)

My primary guesses for the first syllable were dog, pet, etc. (mislead by "trail").
For the second part, I came up with "IX" straight away, thought that only one part was needed, but settled for /ai/ (the sound of "I") or "ex".
The third stanza wasn't too difficult for me as I had heard of "The Music of the Spheres" before.

By the time of maryl's previous post I had tried scent and smell, too, but without success. I was so stuck that I tried a holistic approach - using the last part, that is. ::)
As I was pretty sure about the sphere(s), I tried to dream up something sensible. After dropping my preconceived notion about the second part, hemisphere seemed to fit the last line but one. To identify the second part wasn't difficult, so I only had to search a dictionary for "hem" and, lo, it made sense! :)

This one was definitely hard for me, but all the more fun.

Icarus,
you're right (once again). Of course there's enough room on a hemisphere (of the earth) for all.
If I remember correctly, already the Pythagoreans had the concept of "Music of the Spheres".
As for your clue incorporating some fellow puzzlers, I first assumed it had to do with language. But then I doubted it because I'm not so sure whether that's fitting regarding towr and me. In the end, knowing the solution, it does make sense - as many things you say.

aero_guy,
I wasn't aware of the really very cool four-way approach in the second couplet. Not sure I get the right four even now, actually!
Great riddle!

Beau,
for info on the "Music of the Spheres", take a look here (http://www.rca-omsi.org/musicspheres.htm).

Title: Re: Whether in winter's cold (hard)
Post by maryl on Apr 9^th, 2003, 8:13am

Way to go guys, I had no clue of the third stanza, but it all makes sense now.

Title: Re: Whether in winter's cold (hard)
Post by Icarus on Apr 9^th, 2003, 3:45pm

For the record: It is a poetic reference to old scientific concepts. Since the scientific part was included in the couplet itself, I did not bother to add it to my hint.

And yes, it is older than I indicated. I should have said that these were among the last to believe in it (I'm not sure if Kepler still did). With more accurate measurements made possible by the telescope, and Newton's Law of Gravity offering an explanation for the behavior of planets, it became clear that the solar system layout did not follow a geometric pattern like they thought. You do still here references to the "Music of the Spheres", but not in science, except as historical notes.

Title: Re: Whether in winter's cold (hard)
Post by Beau on Apr 9^th, 2003, 8:39pm

Hey WowBagger,
Thanks for the link bro. I read it in it's entirety and I must say I feel rather silly.

Around paragraph two,
I had a deja vieux.

Realized my memory was poor,
For I'd read all this before.

I'd like to apologize to my peers,
For forgetting "The music of the Spheres."