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        riddles >> what happened >> Black black black.  Everywhere!
        
(Message started by: onlyme722 on Mar 4th, 2008, 2:13pm)
Title: Black black black.  Everywhere!
Post by onlyme722 on Mar 4th, 2008, 2:13pm
I have one.  This is probably super-easy, but it was one of my favs when I was younger, but it's still food for thought, right?

A town is completely covered in BLACK.  Everything, everyone is black (as in the background of this forum).  These people don't build, produce, or create anything but black, their world is black.  A man is driving down the street and a dog runs into the middle of the road.  The man stops and let's the dog pass. Why didn't the man run over the dog?

Any questions you may ask are probably answerable once you realize the obvious answer.  This is probably too easy :P, but indulge me.


And of course, if you've heard this one, don't bother posting the answer :P.
Title: Re: Black black black.  Everywhere!
Post by tiber13 on Mar 4th, 2008, 3:52pm
know this one to, but from a mind trap
dont read:[hide]really, i told you not to read, and you did. i dont trust you[/hide]

[hide]i dubble not trust you now[/hide]

[hide]it is daytime[/hide]
Title: Re: Black black black.  Everywhere!
Post by onlyme722 on Mar 4th, 2008, 3:54pm

on 03/04/08 at 15:52:01, tiber13 wrote:
know this one to, but from a mind trap
dont read:[hide]really, i told you not to read, and you did. i dont trust you[/hide]

[hide]i dubble not trust you now[/hide]

[hide]it is daytime[/hide]


BAH!  You are a such a bummer :P.  I specifically asked that if you KNOW the answer not to just post it :P.  People are lazy, you killed my thread :(.
Title: Re: Black black black.  Everywhere!
Post by Grimbal on Mar 5th, 2008, 1:17am

on 03/04/08 at 15:52:01, tiber13 wrote:
dont read:[hide]really, i told you not to read, and you did. i dont trust you[/hide]

I didn't.  Why don't you trust me?  ;)

Anyway, is the dog white?
Title: Re: Black black black.  Everywhere!
Post by onlyme722 on Mar 5th, 2008, 3:18am

on 03/05/08 at 01:17:16, Grimbal wrote:
I didn't.  Why don't you trust me?  ;)

Anyway, is the dog white?


Well I am kinda like the moderator for this thread, and since I know the answer I am looking for I am entitled to read anything posted to see how close any one has come :P.

hahaha...yea, the dog is white, despite the fact that for my own purposes...white=black.
Title: Re: Black black black.  Everywhere!
Post by onlyme722 on Mar 5th, 2008, 3:18am
THANK YOU tiber, you clever person, you ;)
Title: Re: Black black black.  Everywhere!
Post by onlyme722 on Mar 5th, 2008, 3:28am

on 03/05/08 at 03:18:01, onlyme722 wrote:
Well I am kinda like the moderator for this thread, and since I know the answer I am looking for I am entitled to read anything posted to see how close any one has come :P.

hahaha...yea, the dog is white, despite the fact that for my own purposes...white=black.


Oh...I've had 2 screw drivers (and some MD 20/20...yes, it's been one of those nights) so pardon me if I've neglected to answer your question about the color (assuming you weren't being a smart ass ;) )
...the dog is not white . :)

To those of you being honest so far...don't read the answer, I promise that it is super easy.  It just requires that you shout the first thing you think of, or at least the first few things for those of you with overly creative minds :D.  I was something like 11 years old when I guessed this, and yes...I smile with an annoyingly proud grin that I was the only one among my peers to guess this within 2 minutes, thus stunning our supervisor.  Just remember, most riddles are most easily solved by children...the simple-(and uncluttered)-minded.
Title: Re: Black black black.  Everywhere!
Post by iono on Mar 8th, 2008, 6:09pm
Ive heard this one SO many times....
Title: Re: Black black black.  Everywhere!
Post by Grimbal on Mar 9th, 2008, 6:23am
Is the answer as simple as this?
[hide] He didn't run over the dog because he likes dogs.  And he doesn't want to dent his car. [/hide]
Title: Re: Black black black.  Everywhere!
Post by Iceman on Mar 9th, 2008, 8:12am
Are they also black, as in Africans? Sorry Egyptians, but I dunno much about geography. I like cats though.

Or maybe this town has a lot of petroleum.
Title: Re: Black black black.  Everywhere!
Post by tiber13 on Mar 9th, 2008, 10:44am
for my reference, white = up
Title: Re: Black black black.  Everywhere!
Post by Iceman on Mar 9th, 2008, 11:20am
Perhaps white is a pleasant change after the obscure subject. Although I prefer 'stars' myself.  ::)
Title: Re: Black black black.  Everywhere!
Post by temporary on Mar 11th, 2008, 10:36pm
Or maybe he didn't run over the dog because they aren't on the same street.
Title: Re: Black black black.  Everywhere!
Post by JiNbOtAk on Mar 11th, 2008, 11:22pm
He did hit the dog, but everything is soo black, no one noticed. Not the passerby, who only say black, not the driver, who felt hitting something black, not even the dog, which only felt black.

By the way, what is the colour of a red ball in a black, lightless, non-illuminated room ?
Title: Re: Black black black.  Everywhere!
Post by Sir Col on Mar 12th, 2008, 12:46am

on 03/11/08 at 23:22:36, JiNbOtAk wrote:
By the way, what is the colour of a red ball in a black, lightless, non-illuminated room ?

I'll start the ball rolling (so to speak)... it's amazing how many people will erroneously say, red.
Title: Re: Black black black.  Everywhere!
Post by towr on Mar 12th, 2008, 2:02am

on 03/11/08 at 23:22:36, JiNbOtAk wrote:
By the way, what is the colour of a red ball in a black, lightless, non-illuminated room ?
Depends on what you mean by colour.

Of course, if it isn't red, then there isn't a red ball in that room, therefor the premise is false, and the ball can be said to be whichever colour or colours you want including red.

I also suspect it is physically impossible that no amount of photons in the visible band are bouncing around in the room; although they may be exceedingly rare (Planck's law is continuous and positive for each wavelength). It would also be odd to say an object only has a colour at the moment a photon reflects on it, or a reflected photon hits the receptors in your eye, because photons are discrete. This would entail that there is (under normal circumstance) a very rapid succession where the object does and doesn't have a colour, depending whether at the moment a photon is or isn't reflecting/being received.

A third consideration is the fact that colour, as we know it, really isn't a physical property. Under different circumstance we will call different bands in the EM spectrum red. Colour is a phenomenal property, it's "projected" outwards from our mind. Of course, it's still (usually) based on some physical stimulation of the eyes. Under the same physical circumstances, you wouldn't expect to see different colours   (not unless your perceptual system has undergone some non-trivial changes). But along those lines, if the physical properties of the ball don't changes, it can be said to remain whichever colour it was under normal circumstances, even if it doesn't look like it at the moment; the "real colour" would simply be hidden, not absent.

So in conclusion, I have to disagree with Sir Col's assertion that it would be erroneous to say it's red. It makes at least as much sense to say it's red than to say it has no colour.

(I imagine one could write a full length philosophical paper on it, but this is enough for me this early in the morning)
Title: Re: Black black black.  Everywhere!
Post by JiNbOtAk on Mar 12th, 2008, 2:47am

on 03/12/08 at 00:46:49, Sir Col wrote:
I'll start the ball rolling (so to speak)... it's amazing how many people will erroneously say, red.



on 03/12/08 at 02:02:33, towr wrote:
...


Sir Col rocks !!  ;D
Title: Re: Black black black.  Everywhere!
Post by towr on Mar 12th, 2008, 3:03am

on 03/12/08 at 02:47:37, JiNbOtAk wrote:
Sir Col rocks !!  ;D
Would I have rocked if I had posted five minutes before him say "it's amazing how many people will erroneously say, not red"?
Title: Re: Black black black.  Everywhere!
Post by Grimbal on Mar 12th, 2008, 7:38am
What if you remember what the ball looked like before you switch off the light?

Anyway, the question asks "what is the colour of a red ball in ...".  It is red by definition.
Title: Re: Black black black.  Everywhere!
Post by Sir Col on Mar 12th, 2008, 4:54pm

on 03/12/08 at 03:03:47, towr wrote:
Would I have rocked if I had posted five minutes before him say "it's amazing how many people will erroneously say, not red"?

I think JiNbOtAk was referring to my terrible attempt at humour: "I'll start the ball rolling...".

towr, suppose that an object's pigmentation alters depending on temperature. Consequently its colour would appear to change. In other words, altering the environmental conditions of the object changes its colour. Similarly by altering the amount of light, we reduce the capacity of the ball to demonstrate its "ability" to absorb all colours of the spectrum except for red. In fact, the "red" ball is now exhibiting all the properties of a "black" ball. That is, no visible light reflects from it all in a dark room. So could we still say that a red ball is red if it behaves precisely like a black ball under the same conditions?

To put it slightly differently, the notion of colour is the perceived capacity of an object to absorb/reflect visible light. Deny visible light to the object and we no longer have a red ball as it is no longer reflecting red visible light. I agree that the pigmentation and capacity to absorb/reflect has not changed, but in terms of how it is perceived, in a darkened room, it is no more red than it is black; that is, it reflect no light at all.
Title: Re: Black black black.  Everywhere!
Post by Master of Everything 42 on Mar 12th, 2008, 4:59pm
it cant be black, because black is not a coulor, it is the absence of colour....

drag problems together, i will
Title: Re: Black black black.  Everywhere!
Post by JiNbOtAk on Mar 12th, 2008, 8:03pm

on 03/12/08 at 03:03:47, towr wrote:
Would I have rocked if I had posted five minutes before him say "it's amazing how many people will erroneously say, not red"?



on 03/12/08 at 16:54:20, Sir Col wrote:
I think JiNbOtAk was referring to my terrible attempt at humour: "I'll start the ball rolling..."


I was referring to Sir Col's "ball-rolling" statement. Of course, towr, you rock too, I was just encouraging Sir Col to be continue with his puns filled posts.

Interestingly, is black and white considered as colours ? Why, or why not ?
Title: Re: Black black black.  Everywhere!
Post by towr on Mar 13th, 2008, 2:36am

on 03/12/08 at 16:54:20, Sir Col wrote:
towr, suppose that an object's pigmentation alters depending on temperature. Consequently its colour would appear to change. In other words, altering the environmental conditions of the object changes its colour.
Only because the altering of the environment translates into an alteration of the ball itself in this case. If its temperature didn't change, then it's pigmentation wouldn't change.


Quote:
Similarly by altering the amount of light, we reduce the capacity of the ball to demonstrate its "ability" to absorb all colours of the spectrum except for red. In fact, the "red" ball is now exhibiting all the properties of a "black" ball. That is, no visible light reflects from it all in a dark room. So could we still say that a red ball is red if it behaves precisely like a black ball under the same conditions?
If that were the case under all conditions, rather then a very small subset, yes. Under some conditions a lead ball and a gold ball will be indistinguishable, that doesn't mean that lead and gold are the same under those circumstances; they remain physically different. You can bring them, in theory, under conditions where you can distinguish them.

It comes down to what it means to be red; if it's the ability to absorb the non-red colours from the spectrum and reflecting red; then this ability hasn't changed just because there isn't any light. Just like my ability to breath isn't gone when I hold my breath for a minute.
If it lies in the actual, current reflecting/absorbing of photons, then there are some very peculiar problems to deal with. Because, for one, light is quantized, and so most of the time an object doesn't interact with a photon at all, even under perfect 'visible' conditions.
And there may be further options.


Quote:
To put it slightly differently, the notion of colour is the perceived capacity of an object to absorb/reflect visible light.
Is it? If I don't look at the ball, and so don't perceive it's capacity, does that make it black? Or if I and a friend look at the ball through different coloured glasses and thus perceive a different capacity for absorption/reflection, does it mean the ball both is and isn't red?
Does a tree falling in the forest without anyone around to hear it make a sound?


Quote:
Deny visible light to the object and we no longer have a red ball as it is no longer reflecting red visible light.
Well, it usually doesn't anyway. The time spent reflecting is far outweighed by the time not reflecting, even under the brightest conditions.


Quote:
I agree that the pigmentation and capacity to absorb/reflect has not changed, but in terms of how it is perceived, in a darkened room, it is no more red than it is black; that is, it reflect no light at all.
It seems no more red than black; but that's a perception made under non-optimal conditions. It makes more sense, in my not always equally humble opinion, to consider the colour of an object to be its colour as perceived under (sufficiently) optimal conditions (all other things being equal). This way it doesn't depend on whether or not at the moment someone is looking at the object in question, or whether a photon happens to be reflected at the moment. Making it more a property of the object than of chance (although the issue of different people classifying the colour differently remains; it might be more orange than red to some people, even if they're not colour blind in any way (which would be a non-optimal condition)).


Is it equivalent to say "the ball is red" and "the ball seems red"? Can one be mistaken about the colour of an object. Is colour a property of an object?
Are we considering
"What is the colour of a red ball in a black, lightless, non-illuminated room ?"
or
"What will the colour seem to be of a ball that under ideal conditions seems red, in a black, lightless, non-illuminated room ?"
Title: Re: Black black black.  Everywhere!
Post by JiNbOtAk on Mar 13th, 2008, 3:00am

on 03/13/08 at 02:36:24, towr wrote:
Does a tree falling in the forest without anyone around to hear it make a sound?


Schucks, that was going to be my next question.  ;D

It's amazing how many people will erroneously say, yes.
Title: Re: Black black black.  Everywhere!
Post by Grimbal on Mar 13th, 2008, 3:10am
If JiNbOtAk is sitting in front of his computer but I don't see him, does he still exist?

It's amazing how many people will erroneously say yes.
Title: Re: Black black black.  Everywhere!
Post by Sir Col on Mar 13th, 2008, 4:21am

on 03/12/08 at 00:46:49, Sir Col wrote:
it's amazing how many people will erroneously say, red.

Was this guy baiting for an argument or what?  ::)

As I am unconvinced either way, I did some research and stumbed on this discussion:
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/gen01/gen01815.htm
(It's interesting that they also mentioned the "sound a tree makes falling in the forest".)

I still feel that the whole notion of colour is sufficiently ambiguous that any "answer" will be left somewhat lacking; it depends how you define the colour of an object.

Of course, we never asked ourselves the question, "What made it red in the first place?"

Consider an iron ball that is heated to near melting point before being placed in the darkened room. It would appear "red" as the frequency of the electromagnetic waves it naturally emits would be increased into the visible spectrum due to the increased activity of its atoms.
Title: Re: Black black black.  Everywhere!
Post by Master of Everything 42 on Mar 13th, 2008, 5:53am

(It's interesting that they also mentioned the "sound a tree makes falling in the forest".)
-Sir col

Oh, jerry fell 2 days ago, and he hasn't shut up about it yet

dont deny i have 1337 quoting skillz
Title: Re: Black black black.  Everywhere!
Post by towr on Mar 13th, 2008, 8:36am

on 03/13/08 at 04:21:08, Sir Col wrote:
(It's interesting that they also mentioned the "sound a tree makes falling in the forest".)
Well, it's to be expected really, because that's the standard example in the problem "to what extend does reality depend on our (active) perception of it".


Quote:
I still feel that the whole notion of colour is sufficiently ambiguous that any "answer" will be left somewhat lacking; it depends how you define the colour of an object.
The problem is that colour isnt' really defined. We call things by a certain colour because that's what other people call it. Why exactly they call it that colour is never really questioned. We just pick the best predictor that our mind finds.
If every object anyone ever called red was round, and every round object we've ever seen was red (which means we never looked up to the sun or the moon, but what the hey), then we wouldn't be able to distinguish the shape red from the colour round. ;)
And because of this conventional use of colour, the scientific concept of absorption/reflection of the visible spectrum doesn't neatly correspond with it. Any definition of red will find someone disagreeing with it*), just as any definition of game will find someone disagreeing with it (the latter is an example by Wittgenstein, used in his discussion of language games as determining the meaning of language).

*)Of course if you present them with an example of a red ball, they might agree on whether it's red (to them) anyway. But then, some people are dismissive of other people's games as well, so I suppose it holds up.



Quote:
Of course, we never asked ourselves the question, "What made it red in the first place?"
I blame JiNbOtAk ;)


Quote:
Consider an iron ball that is heated to near melting point before being placed in the darkened room. It would appear "red" as the frequency of the electromagnetic waves it naturally emits would be increased into the visible spectrum due to the increased activity of its atoms.
It would, however, mean the room was illuminated, by the glowing ball.
Title: Re: Black black black.  Everywhere!
Post by SMQ on Mar 13th, 2008, 9:18am
To sum up, it seems to me there are two reasonable answers, depending on whether one views color as an intrinsic or extrinsic property of an object.

If color is an intrinsic property -- i.e. a ball which, under broad spectrum illumination, reflects light with peak power in the visible spectrum of around 670nm is a "red" ball -- then clearly the ball is still "red" regardless of the illumination (or otherwise) of the room.

If, however, color is an extrinsic property -- i.e. a ball which gives an impression of redness to a normally-sighted human observer is a "red" ball -- then it seems to me that the color of the ball in a totally unlighted room is undefined as it gives no impression whatsoever to a normally-sighted human observer.

For myself, I find the intrinsic viewpoint more natural.  It makes more sense to me to say "that red ball appears yellow in this light" than to say "that ball changed color from red to yellow in this light."  So I guess I'm in the "a red ball in a totally dark room is still a red ball" camp.

--SMQ
Title: Re: Black black black.  Everywhere!
Post by Grimbal on Mar 13th, 2008, 3:51pm

on 03/13/08 at 04:21:08, Sir Col wrote:
Consider an iron ball that is heated to near melting point before being placed in the darkened room. It would appear "red" as the frequency of the electromagnetic waves it naturally emits would be increased into the visible spectrum due to the increased activity of its atoms.

Funnily, it is called "black body radiation".  ;)
Title: Re: Black black black.  Everywhere!
Post by iono on Mar 13th, 2008, 8:06pm
You guys think you might be slightly off topic?
The answer is MUCH simpler.
Title: Re: Black black black.  Everywhere!
Post by towr on Mar 14th, 2008, 1:15am

on 03/13/08 at 20:06:28, iono wrote:
You guys think you might be slightly off topic?
Only ever so slightly ;)


Quote:
The answer is MUCH simpler.
Wasn't it answered already?
Title: Re: Black black black.  Everywhere!
Post by JiNbOtAk on Mar 14th, 2008, 3:24am

on 03/13/08 at 08:36:02, towr wrote:
I blame JiNbOtAk ;)


Ok ok, calm down people. No need to get all red in the face..  ::)

However, since we are discussing the red ball, and its intrinsic and extrinsic properties ( love that summary SMQ ), what exactly is red ? Is the red that we as individuals see the same as what other people perceive as red ?
Title: Re: Black black black.  Everywhere!
Post by towr on Mar 14th, 2008, 3:54am

on 03/14/08 at 03:24:14, JiNbOtAk wrote:
what exactly is red ? Is the red that we as individuals see the same as what other people perceive as red ?
No, on two counts. First the range of stimuli people classify as red will not exactly overlap (heck, not even the range of stimuli a person at two different times classifies as red overlaps precisely). Secondly, the phenomenal experience of "red" is almost certainly in a similar way unique among people. Part of my "red" experience in the close future may involve sentiments about this discussion; close to six and a half billion people when they see a red car won't see something that reminds them of this discussion.
Title: Re: Black black black.  Everywhere!
Post by Grimbal on Mar 14th, 2008, 6:14am
When you said "red", you didn't mean "communist"?


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