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        riddles >> what happened >> Pawns2Queens Investment Club
        
(Message started by: raven on Dec 17^th, 2006, 11:41am)

Title: Pawns2Queens Investment Club
Post by raven on Dec 17^th, 2006, 11:41am

I know there are no shmoes in this group, so this one should be a cakewalk for y'all... ;)

Near the turn of the century Charles was deeply in debt, so decided to start an investment club. He promised double your money back in just 90 days. People were skeptical, but those who took the risk got their money, and his club soon gained in popularity. Within a year Charles was able to buy an Italian villa and, as a security measure, buried several million in a hidden safe under the cellar of his new estate. He then cemented this over with a second undetectable floor and promptly returned to the United States.

Nearly two decades later he is penniless--explain why?

Title: Re: Pawns2Queens Investment Club
Post by towr on Dec 17^th, 2006, 11:58am

[hide]Everyone switched to plastic[/hide]?

"Turn of which century?", might be an appropiate question..

Title: Re: Pawns2Queens Investment Club
Post by raven on Dec 17^th, 2006, 12:01pm

You have the right turn, but the wrong answer!

Title: Re: Pawns2Queens Investment Club
Post by Sameer on Dec 17^th, 2006, 1:09pm

he had all the money in stocks?

Title: Re: Pawns2Queens Investment Club
Post by raven on Dec 17^th, 2006, 2:54pm

Nope

Title: Re: Pawns2Queens Investment Club
Post by flamingdragon on Dec 17^th, 2006, 3:04pm

Was his money stolen?

Title: Re: Pawns2Queens Investment Club
Post by raven on Dec 17^th, 2006, 3:06pm

No one stole his money

Title: Re: Pawns2Queens Investment Club
Post by flamingdragon on Dec 17^th, 2006, 3:07pm

He was sued?

Title: Re: Pawns2Queens Investment Club
Post by raven on Dec 17^th, 2006, 3:08pm

That is not the answer

Title: Re: Pawns2Queens Investment Club
Post by flamingdragon on Dec 17^th, 2006, 3:13pm

Obviously, it was a question. ::)

Title: Re: Pawns2Queens Investment Club
Post by raven on Dec 17^th, 2006, 3:19pm

Fair enough, he was, but that is not how he lost his money. 8)

Title: Re: Pawns2Queens Investment Club
Post by flamingdragon on Dec 17^th, 2006, 3:23pm

I knew you said that's not the answer instead of no for a reason. 8)

Was he sued by someone who used his investment club?

Title: Re: Pawns2Queens Investment Club
Post by raven on Dec 17^th, 2006, 3:39pm

This is my first 'what happened', I'm still getting the hang of it... :)

Yes

Title: Re: Pawns2Queens Investment Club
Post by flamingdragon on Dec 17^th, 2006, 3:54pm

Was how he gained the money illegal?

Title: Re: Pawns2Queens Investment Club
Post by raven on Dec 17^th, 2006, 4:02pm

Yep

Title: Re: Pawns2Queens Investment Club
Post by flamingdragon on Dec 17^th, 2006, 4:58pm

Well, im getting lucky guesses. ;D
With my luck so far i'll go out on a limb with this question:

Was he was using the money that people invested into his club in order to use it against security gurards. He would go into a bank pull out a gun and demand he gets the money, just when the vault is opened the police/security guards arrive and he throws the money at them, blinding him, while he grabs the money from the vault and escapes?

Hows that? 8)

Title: Re: Pawns2Queens Investment Club
Post by raven on Dec 17^th, 2006, 5:05pm

Wow, :o that's not right

However, I appreciate your line of thinking ;D

Title: Re: Pawns2Queens Investment Club
Post by Sameer on Dec 17^th, 2006, 5:40pm

He was the one who started the pyramid scheme?

Title: Re: Pawns2Queens Investment Club
Post by raven on Dec 17^th, 2006, 6:07pm

Sameer and flamingdragon, you are both very close to knowing exactly how Charles got his money!

CLUE COUPON
:: [hide] Take this information and go deeper [/hide] ::
Peel Back Orange Label To Redeem

Title: Re: Pawns2Queens Investment Club
Post by flamingdragon on Dec 17^th, 2006, 6:16pm

Was he sued b/c the suer (I guess thats a word) figured out he was gaining his money illegaly?

Title: Re: Pawns2Queens Investment Club
Post by raven on Dec 17^th, 2006, 6:49pm

Suffice to say, I have not evolved the scenario along these lines--so, any answer I give you, I will have to devise now, in order to give. => ref (http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~wwu/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=riddles_whathappened;action=display;num=1166384490#10)

Edit: However, I am willing to devise such answers if you feel it will help you get a better picture of what is going on.

;D

Title: Re: Pawns2Queens Investment Club
Post by Icarus on Dec 17^th, 2006, 8:10pm

His name was Ponzi.

Title: Re: Pawns2Queens Investment Club
Post by cchris on Dec 17^th, 2006, 8:20pm

Ever seen Blue Streak?

Title: Re: Pawns2Queens Investment Club
Post by flamingdragon on Dec 17^th, 2006, 8:22pm

Devising answers now would be fine! ;D

How about another question?

Is the answer tangible? lol

Title: Re: Pawns2Queens Investment Club
Post by raven on Dec 17^th, 2006, 8:49pm

on 12/17/06 at 20:10:30, Icarus wrote:

His name was Ponzi.

A distant relative, probably.

on 12/17/06 at 20:20:14, cchris wrote:

Ever seen Blue Streak?

From the looks of a review, I would say the first half fits.

on 12/17/06 at 20:22:42, flamingdragon wrote:

Is the answer tangible? lol

I'm really not sure how to answer this. So here's a hint: Is an event tangible?

Title: Re: Pawns2Queens Investment Club
Post by flamingdragon on Dec 17^th, 2006, 9:42pm

Blue Streak is one of my favorite movies!

And onto less important matters, of course the answer is an event, I just wanted to know wether you consider an event tangible or not. ;D

Title: Re: Pawns2Queens Investment Club
Post by raven on Dec 17^th, 2006, 11:11pm

I think I would consider an event tangible, what in life is more so?

Title: Re: Pawns2Queens Investment Club
Post by Sameer on Dec 18^th, 2006, 9:38am

Well i was thinking in terms of an event and was thinking about either the great American depression or the y2k stock boom ... in both cases stocks... either way..it is something to do with money scams and some event... :-/

Title: Re: Pawns2Queens Investment Club
Post by SMQ on Dec 18^th, 2006, 10:02am

Given the title of the thread, I had been wondering if this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Turk) is relevant, but the circumstances don't seem to line up with the riddle...

--SMQ

Title: Re: Pawns2Queens Investment Club
Post by raven on Dec 18^th, 2006, 10:34am

Sameer, you have the right type of thinking here, you are definitely getting warm. ;)

SMQ, very interesting (scams fascinate me--though I'm not a scammer), I will tell you, the title is a veiled reference to the answer guessed at by Icarus (as well as some other, even more veiled, references...but don't waste time deconstructing it, it's not worth the effort).

PLAY ON! ;)

Title: Re: Pawns2Queens Investment Club
Post by WombatDeath on Dec 18^th, 2006, 3:56pm

Is the first World War (ending 1918 ) involved somehow? I thought that perhaps his land in Italy was seized by Allied forces, but that doesn't really fit in with the whole getting sued thing.

Title: Re: Pawns2Queens Investment Club
Post by Icarus on Dec 18^th, 2006, 4:08pm

So the money was obtained in a Ponzi, or pyramid scheme. For those unfamiliar with it, this scam works by paying off earlier investors with the money paid in by the new ones. The first investors are pleased with their return and word spreads that the investment is good (of course, they don't know where their return came from), so more and more investors get involved. Eventually this scheme will collapse, as not enough new investors join to pay off those who are already in. But usually at some point there is a big boom in new investors. This is the signal for the scam operator to get out. He flees with all the funds currently invested.

So this is what the guy did to get his money. But the question is, why does he not have it now - at least the hidden funds?

Some obvious possibilities are:
he has been arrested and is unable to get to the money;
the villa has been confiscated, and although the money is still there, he cannot reach it;
someone has found the money despite his efforts, and he cannot claim it because of the legal ramifications;
the villa has been destroyed, including his reinforced safe;
he's spent all the money on wine, women, song, and horses - not necessarily in that order.

Title: Re: Pawns2Queens Investment Club
Post by Sameer on Dec 18^th, 2006, 4:34pm

so did the guy do the pyramid scam and hide the money in fort bastille right before the french revolution?

Title: Re: Pawns2Queens Investment Club
Post by denis on Dec 18^th, 2006, 5:43pm

Well, I was thinking along the lines the devaluation of currency that occured in the depression years that would make his money in the safe worthless (or almost worhtless) but he still had the villa. So he would have to have lost both villa and access to the safe.

Let's suppose he lost the title to his villa in the judicial verdict when he was sued for starting an illegal pyramid scheme in order to help repay the losses incurred by the investors.

Title: Re: Pawns2Queens Investment Club
Post by raven on Dec 18^th, 2006, 6:13pm

Very nice summary Icarus :) and while he was arrested, this riddle is about when he gets out, and he spent none of the 3 million, and the villa is still intact, and no one else found the money, and with that much money at stake he would find a way to access it.

denis is closest in his reasoning (so far) to why he is now penniless ::)

I feel this soon coming to a close, time to dust off another riddle. 8)

Title: Re: Pawns2Queens Investment Club
Post by Icarus on Dec 18^th, 2006, 7:27pm

So it was the turn of the 20th century, his money was in Deutchmarks. He gets out of jail, digs up his millions, travels back to Germany and discovers to his shock (he read no newspapers while in prison) that inflation was so bad that his best bet is to sell off his millions as fancy napkins. With the proceeds he is just able to pay off his hotel bill.

Title: Re: Pawns2Queens Investment Club
Post by raven on Dec 18^th, 2006, 7:55pm

You are very close, but a little off...and his money was in Italian Lira, and yes to the century.

Title: Re: Pawns2Queens Investment Club
Post by Sameer on Dec 18^th, 2006, 8:28pm

on 12/18/06 at 19:55:12, raven wrote:

You are very close, but a little off...and his money was in Italian Lira, and yes to the century.

crap you should have told me i was right with the depression then :p .. anyways his wealth became worthless due to the two world wars... ?

Title: Re: Pawns2Queens Investment Club
Post by Icarus on Dec 18^th, 2006, 8:35pm

I wasn't sure about the Lira, but I know that the deutchmark suffered from severe runaway inflation during the Weimarr Republic. The resulting economic devastation is in large part why Hitler rose to power.

Title: Re: Pawns2Queens Investment Club
Post by flamingdragon on Dec 18^th, 2006, 8:44pm

Even I know that. ::)

Title: Re: Pawns2Queens Investment Club
Post by raven on Dec 18^th, 2006, 8:52pm

on 12/18/06 at 19:55:12, raven wrote:

You are very close, but a little off...and his money was in Italian Lira, and yes to the century.

Oops... I'm sorry, my bad, my last statement above was in-haste, I meant: "...and no to the century."

Go ahead; rake me over the hot coals ::)

Title: Re: Pawns2Queens Investment Club
Post by Sameer on Dec 18^th, 2006, 9:05pm

well italian lira was currency only between 1866 and 1999 .. if 20th century is not the right answer then I am lost.. i am not sure what significant event happened at the later part of 1800s... :-[

unless it is 21st century.. and related to this http://www.gocurrency.com/international-travel/2006/11/13/italian-lira-scam/

Title: Re: Pawns2Queens Investment Club
Post by raven on Dec 18^th, 2006, 9:17pm

[dusts off the ash, mends his burns]

hmmn, yes, the 21^st...his money was real lira.

Title: Re: Pawns2Queens Investment Club
Post by Sameer on Dec 18^th, 2006, 9:19pm

he had all of his money in that italian lira coins that became worthless after the introduction of euro...

Title: Re: Pawns2Queens Investment Club
Post by raven on Dec 18^th, 2006, 9:21pm

His money was real lira.

Edited: but you are one degree off in your answer.

Title: Re: Pawns2Queens Investment Club
Post by denis on Dec 19^th, 2006, 12:59am

2 problems came up in the Italian Lira during the intervening decades after the turn of the 21'th century:

1-Devaluataiom
2-Convertability

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/business/2001/euro_cash/spent_currencies/lira.stm

"When inflation began to spiral during the 1920s, Mussolini was determined to save face internationally and halt the lira's plunge. He announced the "battle of the lira" and reined it in with an unrealistically low exchange rate against the British pound."

"But as always with the lira, more inflation was just around the corner. Italy's invasion of Ethiopia left a big hole in the public coffers. Italians were urged to give in their gold - including their wedding rings - for the fascist cause, bringing in a haul of 400m lira. But more cash was still needed, and the government turned to printing money again, sending the lira once more on a downhill trend. "

However, a steep devaluation alone was not enough to render Charles peniless.

Also from:

http://www.iew.unizh.ch/institute/chairs/woitek/downloads/5_Gigliobianco_Italy.pdf

"The convertibility of the Lira, de facto abandoned in December 1934 when the state monopoly of the foreign exchange market was instituted, was formally abolished on 21 July 1935, when the central bank’s obligation to hold a certain amount of reserves against currency in circulation was dropped."

So to an American living in the US in the mid 1930's (such as Charles), the already heavily devalued Lira was worthless since he/she could not convert it back to US funds at that time.

If he sold the villa, he could not convert the money back in US funds to pay his exorbitant fine that he incurred in the pyramid scheme trial. Supposing he was somehow able to convert his Lira's back to US funds, the devalued amount wound not cover the fine imposed.

Title: Re: Pawns2Queens Investment Club
Post by Grimbal on Dec 19^th, 2006, 1:09am

1 million Italian lire were worth some 500 euro.

And italian lire don't have cents or pennies so you remain penny-less.

Title: Re: Pawns2Queens Investment Club
Post by towr on Dec 19^th, 2006, 1:39am

If the answer were to be that the money became valueless after the switch to the euro; I'd have to point out that's not actually the case. Even though it is no longer legal tender you can still exchange it at national banks for several decades.

Title: Re: Pawns2Queens Investment Club
Post by SMQ on Dec 19^th, 2006, 4:43am

on 12/19/06 at 01:39:33, towr wrote:

Even though it is no longer legal tender you can still exchange it at national banks for several decades.

Although that might be somewhat more difficult if one has a criminal record for embezzlement...but I sopose there are ways around that problem for someone with enough determination and resources.

--SMQ

Title: Re: Pawns2Queens Investment Club
Post by raven on Dec 19^th, 2006, 8:03am

towr, you are nearly correct. Actually, many countries converting to the euro will allow you to exchange their national currency at the National Bank indefinitely, while others will allow you to do so for a decade...

For extra points, anyone who puts the key pieces together into a legible whole.

8)

Edit: Sorry that I confused people with the century, it was meant to be vague in the riddle, but I had a brain-fart when I was answering on that point. Hopefully my next one will be better, and I better at moderating these 'What Happened' types.

Title: Re: Pawns2Queens Investment Club
Post by denis on Dec 19^th, 2006, 10:15am

on 12/19/06 at 08:03:53, raven wrote:

Sorry that I confused people with the century, it was meant to be vague in the riddle, but I had a brain-fart when I was answering on that point. Hopefully my next one will be better, and I better at moderating these 'What Happened' types.

Yeah, I just noticed the change in your century from 20 to 21'th..... So you can ignore my earlier ramblings .

One problem I see is that that the puzzle starts with Charles deeply in debt at "nearly the turn of the century" (i.e. close to the turn of 21'th century) and then something happens a few decades later which is in the future. So this would go in the "What will happen?" category. Best to stay at the turn of the 20'th century and use my solution ;D

Title: Re: Pawns2Queens Investment Club
Post by hiyathere on Dec 19^th, 2006, 10:25am

I have it. [hide]He is a scammer and buries all his illegal earnings in the villa. He gets caught and is put in a jail. By the time he gets out, probably 2 decades later, he can no longer exchange the lira for the euro, so he basically goes bankrupt.[/hide]

Title: Re: Pawns2Queens Investment Club
Post by denis on Dec 19^th, 2006, 10:34am

Hyathere, he still [hide]has the villa so he is not completeley bankrupt. Pricipal residences are usually exempt from bankruptcy proceedings but his Villa would not qualify as it is located outside the US[/hide]

Title: Re: Pawns2Queens Investment Club
Post by hiyathere on Dec 19^th, 2006, 10:39am

yeah, [hide]but the villa has not be renovated for nearly 2 centuries, so by the time he gets out, it's probably falling apart, so it won't be worth much anymore.[/hide]

Title: Re: Pawns2Queens Investment Club
Post by raven on Dec 19^th, 2006, 10:42am

on 12/19/06 at 10:15:24, denis wrote:

...So this would go in the "What will happen?" category.

Thus my rather intentional wording of "Nearly two decades later he is penniless--explain why?"

Yes, the villa... well, I'm going off the idea that villas are not cheap to maintain and since he was in prison for nearly two decades the back taxes (or what ever they have in Italy) basically remove the villa from the equation.

Otherwise, hiyathere has the intended wrap-up answer for this riddle.

8)

Good work, all, and I hope it was enjoyable.

Title: Re: Pawns2Queens Investment Club
Post by flamingdragon on Dec 19^th, 2006, 4:39pm

Well, the riddle actually says he is pennie-less, meaning he has no money, this does not mean he doesn't have stuff from which to gain money.

Title: Re: Pawns2Queens Investment Club
Post by raven on Dec 19^th, 2006, 6:01pm

Charles was in prison close to 20 years... the US government seized all his assets, except the Italian Villa...

However; the villa collected back taxes for that ~20 years, as well as depreciated and generally fell into disrepair. Therefore, when Charles gets out, he could save up enough to go to Italy and "reclaim" his villa. Of course, he would have to have some serious money to pay off those taxes, and fix the villa...neither which he has--and then only if the villa hasn't been seized by the Italian gvnt for those same taxes. Since I don't know the intricacies of Italian tax law, and it probably depends on region anyway, let us say that the villa has been seized (it would have been in the US).

Just going to show, it takes money to make money!

;)