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        riddles >> medium >> [Chess] Mate in one move (Zukertort)
        
(Message started by: Boody on Apr 14^th, 2003, 5:23am)

Title: [Chess] Mate in one move (Zukertort)
Post by Boody on Apr 14^th, 2003, 5:23am

After some posts I decide to rewording the puzzle.
I agree that it's not a good one in this form.

~~Problem edited by chess grandmaster Johannes Zukertort (*)~~
The following problem was created by the chess grandmaster Johannes Zukertort(*) in 188? (I don't know exactly the year).
The question is :
what was the solution of this problem ?

White to play and mate in one move.

############################################
##+++++-----+++++-----+++++-----+++++-----##
##+++++-----+++++-----+++++-----+++++-----## 8
##+++++-----+++++-----+++++-----+++++-----##
##-----+++++-----+++++-----+ +- -+ +##
##-----+++++-----+++++----- R P [K] ## 7
##-----+++++-----+++++-----+ +- -+ +##
##+++++-----+++++-----+++++-----+ +-----##
##+++++-----+++++-----+++++----- N -----## 6
##+++++-----+++++-----+++++-----+ +-----##
##-----+++++-----+++++-----+++++- -+++++##
##-----+++++-----+++++-----+++++ K +++++## 5
##-----+++++-----+++++-----+++++- -+++++##
##+++++-----+++++-----+++++-----+++++-----##
##+++++-----+++++-----+++++-----+++++-----## 4
##+++++-----+++++-----+++++-----+++++-----##
##-----+++++-----+++++-----+++++-----+++++##
##-----+++++-----+++++-----+++++-----+++++## 3
##-----+++++-----+++++-----+++++-----+++++##
##+++++-----+++++-----+++++-----+++++-----##
##+++++-----+++++-----+++++-----+++++-----## 2
##+++++-----+++++-----+++++-----+++++-----##
##-----+++++-----+++++-----+++++-----+++++##
##-----+++++-----+++++-----+++++-----+++++## 1
##-----+++++-----+++++-----+++++-----+++++##
############################################
A B C D E F G H

White:
------
King (Roi) G5
Roque (Tour) F7
kNight (Cavalier) G6
Pawn (pion) G7

[Black]:
------
[K]ing (Roi) H7

(*):Zukertort ( born Sept 7 1842 Died June 20 1888 ).
One of the strongest chess grandmasters of the 19th century,
Zukertort won London 1883, one of the greatest tournaments ever played.
However, he is now best remembered as the loser (to Steinitz)
of the first official World Chess Championship match,
played in various American cities in 1886.

PS:
- Sorry for the Ascii-Art, I haven't got any chessboard editor.
If someone has got one for win98 :( please let me know.
- I didn't find this funny chess problem in the site, so I post it.
- I hesitate for the level of this one.
Mate in one move seems to be obligatory in easy level section.
But this one is not so simple that it seems.
Tell me what do you think about its level.
In this formulation the level become easy.
Are you agree with that rewording ?

Moderator (William Wu): Here is a JPEG of the ASCII drawn chessboard above. Thanks to Boody for providing the image. If any of you have images you want to post, but do not have the webspace to do so, just send me the image and I will provide webspace for you.

http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~wwu/images/riddles/Zukertort.jpg

The code I used to insert the image is:

Code:

[center][img]http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~wwu/images/riddles/Zukertort.jpg[/img][/center]

Title: Re: [Chess] Mate in one move (Zukertort)
Post by Ulkesh on Apr 14^th, 2003, 5:58am

Surely this isn't possible (unless it's a trick question). Are you sure the board is set up correctly?

I can see mate in 4, but that's a far cry from the asked-for mate in one:

1. Kf6 Kh6
2. g8=Q Kh5
3. Nf4+ Kh4
4. Rh7#

Title: Re: [Chess] Mate in one move (Zukertort)
Post by wowbagger on Apr 14^th, 2003, 5:59am

on 04/14/03 at 05:23:02, Boody wrote:

White to play and mate in one move.
White:
------
King (Roi) G5
Roque (Tour) F7
kNight (Cavalier) G6
Pawn (pion) G7

[Black]:
------
[K]ing (Roi) H7
[/font]

Are you sure the setup is correct and it's in one move?

I haven't checked using a program, but at the moment, it seems impossible to me, because [hide]the black king can always move to g8 in his next move if white doesn't play Ne7, but this isn't a check[/hide].
Or maybe I'm just proving that this particular mate-in-one isn't that easy.

Title: Re: [Chess] Mate in one move (Zukertort)
Post by wowbagger on Apr 14^th, 2003, 6:08am

Seems we came to the same conclusion at about the same time, Ulkesh! :)

I found another mate in four that is quite nice, I'd say:
1. Re7 Kg8
2. Kf6 Kh7
3. g8=N+ Kxg8
4. Rg7#

What do you think of it?

Title: Re: [Chess] Mate in one move (Zukertort)
Post by Ulkesh on Apr 14^th, 2003, 6:25am

on 04/14/03 at 06:08:09, wowbagger wrote:

Your mate in 4 definitely has more aesthetic appeal than mine, but we're both still 3 moves shy of mate in 1.

Incidentally, I've plugged the positions into a computer, and mate in 4 is the best you can do -- unless the chess program is wrong?! I also considered the possiblilty that the board is rotated 180 degrees (ignoring the co-ordinates). Mate in 3 is the best that can be done there.

Title: Re: [Chess] Mate in one move (Zukertort)
Post by cho on Apr 14^th, 2003, 7:35am

My theory: [hide]The board is actually rotated 90^o and the challenge actually means "White to play and then mate in one." White will mate on his next turn.[/hide]

Title: Re: [Chess] Mate in one move (Zukertort)
Post by Boody on Apr 14^th, 2003, 8:19am

First of all, I'm happy there's no answer yet.
So, this is not an easy level puzzle.

I'm surprised that no one know this problem.
I've found it in a french book:
"L'Encyclopédie des échecs" M.Giffard and others authors (??)
in collection "Bouquins".

I'm sure of the position.
I had indicated the position with letters and number coordinates to avoid any misunderstood.
No rotate, no changes were available.

I'm agree with the fact that mate is possible in multi-move but the beauty of this problem is to find the only one move which mate black at once.

[ multi quote ]
1/Surely this isn't possible (unless it's a trick question). Are you sure the board is set up correctly?
2/Are you sure the setup is correct and it's in one move?
[ end multi quote ]
1/ it's possible, yes
2/ yes, yes.

I can't say more without giving too hint.

I'll give you hint later.

Title: Re: [Chess] Mate in one move (Zukertort)
Post by towr on Apr 14^th, 2003, 8:20am

I wouldn't rely on chess-programs too much.. They're not made to solve chess puzzles, and tend to have some blind spots.. (They rarely use a brute force method, which may be needed to find a best solution, rather than a somewhat optimal solution)

We're looking for check-mate right, not stale-mate..?

Title: Re: [Chess] Mate in one move (Zukertort)
Post by Boody on Apr 14^th, 2003, 8:43am

on 04/14/03 at 08:20:40, towr wrote:

1/...chess-programs ...
2/We're looking for check-mate right, not stale-mate..?

1/Hint (not so helpfull) :
[hide]
It's normal that a chess-programs cannot solve this problem[/hide]
2/yes, you have to find a checkmate.
it's White's turn.
White make one move and Black (King) is checkmate.

Title: Re: [Chess] Mate in one move (Zukertort)
Post by wowbagger on Apr 14^th, 2003, 8:48am

on 04/14/03 at 07:35:05, cho wrote:

My theory: [hidden theory]

This is not possible, cho, as the coordinates of the pieces are clearly stated. As for the other part of your theory: This would actually be [hide]mate in two[/hide] then.
I asked about the position and problem statement precisely to exclude such possibilities.

on 04/14/03 at 08:20:40, towr wrote:

I wouldn't rely on chess-programs too much.. They're not made to solve chess puzzles, and tend to have some blind spots..

This is surely right in general. In the case at hand, however, it is a mate in one! Every serious chess program that lets you search for a mate just has to find it! (I haven't checked using a program yet.)

Quote:

(They rarely use a brute force method, which may be needed to find a best solution, rather than a somewhat optimal solution)

Well, I'm not too sure, but when they're looking for a mate, especially with only a few moves, they should use brute force in order to exclude the possibility of a mate.

Quote:

We're looking for check-mate right, not stale-mate..?

Yes, we are. The statement is very clear on this point. And apart from this, the stalemate move is too obvious to be considered "not so simple".

Title: Re: [Chess] Mate in one move (Zukertort)
Post by towr on Apr 14^th, 2003, 9:18am

on 04/14/03 at 08:48:38, wowbagger wrote:

Well, I'm not too sure, but when they're looking for a mate, especially with only a few moves, they should use brute force in order to exclude the possibility of a mate.

Yes they should, unfortunately they rarely let you tell them they have to find a mate in X moves. They assume it is midgame and try to optimize search, which means pruning the search tree, loosing possible solutions..
And end-game books are often limited to plays with 4 or less pieces, since they get big rather quickly..

(Help-mates is even worse, since chess-programs rarely, if ever, allow anything but best-play for both sides in analyses)

Title: Re: [Chess] Mate in one move (Zukertort)
Post by redPEPPER on Apr 14^th, 2003, 9:30am

There's one possibility that occured to me: [hide]pawn to G8 and turns into a black knight [/hide] but I'm not sure that's a valid move. On the other hand, no valid move seems to work...

Title: Re: [Chess] Mate in one move (Zukertort)
Post by Boody on Apr 14^th, 2003, 9:32am

on 04/14/03 at 09:18:18, towr wrote:

...Help-mates ...

is not possible in "mate in one-move" problem.
Help-mate would say that both players cooperate ...
and here black do not play at all. ;)

Title: Re: [Chess] Mate in one move (Zukertort)
Post by wowbagger on Apr 14^th, 2003, 9:41am

I'm sure redPEPPER's possiblity is not a valid move. Consequently, it's not a solution to the riddle. Or the riddle shouldn't use the word "chess".

Interestingly, I was going to ask whether the intended move was a valid one.

Ok, I checked the position using a chess program and it found a plethora of mates in four moves, but not even one with only three moves except if I overlooked one in the list. (Unfortunately I don't have the manual here to look how the settings affect the search.)

Title: Re: [Chess] Mate in one move (Zukertort)
Post by Ulkesh on Apr 14^th, 2003, 9:45am

I'm convinced that this is either a trick question, or isn't possible (I'm well aware that I may look very stupid when the answer is revealed).

- If the knight puts the king in check on f8, the king can move to g8. If the knight moves anywhere else, the king isn't in check.
- The rook can't put the king in check, and neither can the king (obviously).
- If the pawn is promoted, it doesn't matter what to, the black king can capture it.
- There are no other revealed checks (apart from the pawn one).

This is all very obvious stuff, but I'm just checking that I haven't overlooked anything...

Title: Re: [Chess] Mate in one move (Zukertort)
Post by Boody on Apr 14^th, 2003, 9:47am

on 04/14/03 at 09:30:38, redPEPPER wrote:

There's one possibility that occured to me: [hide]hidden answer[/hide] but I'm not sure that's a valid move. On the other hand, no valid move seems to work...

YEEEP !
Congratulations.
That the good move.
Let me explain why:
[hide]In this post I make a reference to Zukertort. It's not for nothing.
When Zukertort made this problem (18??) , the rules of FIDE had this rule about promoted pawn: A pawn on a 8th row must be promoted in any other piece of the game but not a king and not a pawn.
So it's unusual but not forbidden to promoted a pawn in the other color.
Now the rule precise that you have to promote in your color.
[/hide]
That why a chess program cannot find the move.

Title: Re: [Chess] Mate in one move (Zukertort)
Post by Ulkesh on Apr 14^th, 2003, 9:54am

::)

Title: Re: [Chess] Mate in one move (Zukertort)
Post by wowbagger on Apr 14^th, 2003, 9:57am

:o

Ouch.

Hm, I'm not sure yet whether I really like this riddle.
I probably should have asked about the validity of the move straight away... :P

Title: Re: [Chess] Mate in one move (Zukertort)
Post by Boody on Apr 14^th, 2003, 10:04am

on 04/14/03 at 09:41:58, wowbagger wrote:

Ok I will admit that there is something that looks like tricks.
But this problem have a context clearly identified in the title and in the body.
And if you are really sure of the unvalidity of the move, you know the rule very well and you could imagine that in the context it was little different rule.
If you don't know the rule very well, no matter the actual rule, you could imagine the solution.

In fact when this problem is given to me I didn't find the solution for the same reasons of yours :) , but there was no clear indication of the period of the edition of the problem.
i'm sure I'm very clear.

I'm agree with the fact that I'd better titled [Old Chess] but this would be too simple , no ?

Title: Re: [Chess] Mate in one move (Zukertort)
Post by Boody on Apr 14^th, 2003, 3:39pm

I agree to modify the puzzle.

I apologies for this false wording.

:-[

Title: Re: [Chess] Mate in one move (Zukertort)
Post by SWF on Apr 14^th, 2003, 5:30pm

Don't worry about it, Boody, I think this is a very good riddle for this forum. It has a nice trick that involves some trivia. Since the board has just a few pieces, and it only asks for one move, nobody should feel upset for spending too much time on it, as it should quickly be apparent that there is something strange going on. Now, if there were 20 pieces on the board this trick was needed to mate in 7, it would be kind of unfair.

I suspect there are plenty of other web sites specializing in more normal chess problems, but something unique like this seems to fit in.

Title: Re: [Chess] Mate in one move (Zukertort)
Post by typenamehere_ on Apr 14^th, 2003, 9:30pm

maybe i stupid but i no understand how white pawn move and make black knight ends in mate? i no understand, care explain please? thank you.

Title: Re: [Chess] Mate in one move (Zukertort)
Post by Chronos on Apr 14^th, 2003, 11:15pm

typenamehere_, we first must assume that we're allowing the pawn to promote to a black piece. Ordinarily, this isn't allowed, but in the context, as a really old puzzle, it's legit. Now, we move our white pawn forward one space to the 8 rank. It now turns into another piece, of the white player's choice. Ordinarily, the white player would choose a white queen, but he can make other choices, too. In this case, the white player makes the bizarre (but ingenious) decision to turn his pawn into a black knight. Now, it's black's turn. Since the pawn moved out of the way, he's in check from the rook. He has a brand-new knight now, that he didn't have before, but he can't use that knight to capture the attacking rook, and he also can't use the knight to block the rook. So his only choice is to move his king. But he can't move the king to G6 (capturing the white knight) or h6, because those squares are guarded by the white king. He can't move to G7, because that square is guarded by the white rook. He can't move to H8, because that square is guarded by the white knight. And here's the trick: He can't move his king to G8, because his own (brand new) knight is there, and you can't capture your own pieces. So, he's in check, and he can't get out of check. Checkmate.

As an aside, I've seen a similar puzzle before, so I did actually look up the exact rule in the official rulebooks. But I didn't realize that that was a relatively new rule, which was not on the books in the 1800s. Given that it was not, this puzzle is perfectly valid, and certainly sneaky enough to be interesting. Good job.

Title: Re: [Chess] Mate in one move (Zukertort)
Post by Boody on Apr 15^th, 2003, 1:55am

on 04/14/03 at 23:15:35, Chronos wrote:

...so I did actually look up the exact rule in the official rulebooks. But I didn't realize that that was a relatively new rule, which was not on the books in the 1800s. Given that it was not, this puzzle is perfectly valid, and certainly sneaky enough to be interesting. Good job.

Thank you, Chronos, for the very precise explanation.
I'm interesting, If you find something more precise on that rule of promotion.
the book (Le guide des échecs http://www.amazon.fr/exec/obidos/ASIN/2221059131/qid=1050396715/sr=1-4/ref=sr_1_0_4/171-8193976-2635402) where I've found this is not precise for this problem and seems to me strange because of this:
- the problem is just titled Mate in one move (Zukertort).
no more precision with the diagram, so I assume that is Zukertort (1842 - 1888 ) who has made it before he died ;) .
And in the given solution, the book said that a this period the rule of FIDE (Federation Internationale des Echecs = World Chess Federation ) accept the two colors for a promoted pawn.
But in another place the book said that the FIDE was created in 1924 !!
There is a contradiction.

Title: Re: [Chess] Mate in one move (Zukertort)
Post by wowbagger on Apr 15^th, 2003, 2:21am

on 04/14/03 at 10:04:14, Boody wrote:

I'm agree with the fact that I'd better titled [Old Chess] but this would be too simple , no ?

Yes, it probably would.

Your rewording is ok with me. I don't think it makes the puzzle too simple, but that is, of course, subjective.
A nice problem, in retrospect. :)

on 04/14/03 at 17:30:41, SWF wrote:

Well said, SWF.
After rethinking the puzzle, I agree with the reasoning in favour of this riddle. It fits well into the "medium" section, too.

Title: Re: [Chess] Mate in one move (Zukertort)
Post by Boody on Apr 15^th, 2003, 4:15am

:)

Thank you for you aggrement.

Great masters honour me.

8)