wu :: forums - Print Page


    
      
        wu :: forums
        (http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~wwu/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi)
      

        riddles >> hard >> tough puzzle
        
(Message started by: Marissa on Mar 31^st, 2008, 8:29am)

Title: tough puzzle
Post by Marissa on Mar 31^st, 2008, 8:29am

can anyone figure out this puzzle?

http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004393.html

Title: Re: tough puzzle
Post by Marissa on Apr 1^st, 2008, 10:29am

I don't see how this comic can help solve this puzzle

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0327.html

Title: Re: tough puzzle
Post by towr on Apr 1^st, 2008, 1:18pm

Discovering the wonderful world of webcomics, eh?

Well, shooting all three guards of the original post, you'd find out from the response which is the liar; he'd be the one denying to be in pain. So ask him which way nto to go, and you're home free.

Title: Re: tough puzzle
Post by Marissa on Apr 1^st, 2008, 1:34pm

Yeah, some webcomics look fun and challenging.

I think that having a stabbing guard makes questions to the other guards more difficult, eh?

We don't know whether or not the stabbing guard tells the truth, and what he would consider a question as a "tricky question".

Title: Re: tough puzzle
Post by Marissa on Apr 1^st, 2008, 2:36pm

Have you see this one

http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/000144.html

Title: Re: tough puzzle
Post by towr on Apr 1^st, 2008, 3:06pm

on 04/01/08 at 14:36:22, Marissa wrote:

Have you see this one

http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/000144.html

Partially clips isn't one of the comics on my exceedingly large reading list, although I've heard of it.
That particular one reminds me of the "gods of gibberland" (http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~wwu/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=riddles_hard;action=display;num=1028840975) puzzle on this site.

Title: Re: tough puzzle
Post by Marissa on Apr 1^st, 2008, 5:11pm

Still, it is a tough logical puzzle, the one with a stabbing guard.

Title: Re: tough puzzle
Post by towr on Apr 2^nd, 2008, 12:50am

I'm not sure it's really a logical puzzle; that would assume there's a logical answer.
If there's just one guard, but he'll stab you as you approach; well, what's the solution then?

Title: Re: tough puzzle
Post by BenVitale on Apr 2^nd, 2008, 9:43am

You need to know either exactly who the stabber is or if he is consistent in his lying/truthtelling, or just
answers on a whim.

The text below the image tells us that it is designed to trap logicians.

This puzzle reminds me of another puzzle: A man on an island with natives ..." The solution was to ignore the natives and head up to the mountain.

Title: Re: tough puzzle
Post by Grimbal on Apr 2^nd, 2008, 9:59am

The third guard only stabs people who ask tricky questions. Simple questions like pointing at another guard and asking "Is he a liar?" isn't tricky.

Title: Re: tough puzzle
Post by BenVitale on Apr 2^nd, 2008, 12:39pm

How do you determine which guard is the "stabbing guard"?

I think this puzzle is insolvable or maybe I missing something. Or maybe just ignore the guards and do whatever.

Title: Re: tough puzzle
Post by Grimbal on Apr 3^rd, 2008, 12:25am

The guard stabs people who ask tricky questions. Just ask simple questions.

Title: Re: tough puzzle
Post by temporary on Apr 3^rd, 2008, 6:09pm

How many questions do I get. Also, is finding out if the stabbing guard is liar/truther part of the riddle, or did you just forget to mention it. The paradox dragon can't be solved because the 2nd head accused himself of lying, which only the random one would do, but the 3rd head accused him of lying then said that he wasn't actually lying, so he must be the random one. Maybe the narrator lied. And how can you determine how "simple" or "tricky" a question is? Here is another one

http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/3cup

Title: Re: tough puzzle
Post by Grimbal on Apr 4^th, 2008, 6:13am

And the middle head cannot be random, because then the left and right heads would be truthful and lying. They couldn't agree.

Title: Re: tough puzzle
Post by temporary on Apr 4^th, 2008, 11:05pm

But to disagree with yourself or say you just lyed(which heads 2 and 3 both did), one ust be random.

Title: Re: tough puzzle
Post by Grimbal on Apr 5^th, 2008, 12:01pm

I agree with you that there is no solution.

As with the stabbing guard problem, it is a joke not meant to actually be solved.

Title: Re: tough puzzle
Post by temporary on Apr 5^th, 2008, 7:33pm

There might be a way to solve it though. Let's say you get 4 questions and the stabbing guard is random.

Title: Re: tough puzzle
Post by skeptic1000 on Apr 25^th, 2008, 11:30am

It's a freaking joke! You have to ask a tricky question to figure anything out, which means you will get stabbed. (This is where you are supposed to laugh). It doesn't matter if you get four questions, or if you don't ask the stabbing guard directly, because he stabs anyone who asks a tricky question regardless of who you ask it of.

You can dissect a joke and you can dissect a frog, but they both get killed in the process...

Title: Re: tough puzzle
Post by towr on Apr 25^th, 2008, 12:19pm

on 04/25/08 at 11:30:44, skeptic1000 wrote:

You can dissect a joke and you can dissect a frog, but they both get killed in the process...

On the other hand, overanalyzing a joke can be a joke in itself.
Seriousness in the face of absurdity is absurd, and therefore an appropriate reaction as much as anything else.

Title: Re: tough puzzle
Post by skeptic1000 on Apr 25^th, 2008, 1:46pm

on 04/25/08 at 12:19:26, towr wrote:

On the other hand, overanalyzing a joke can be a joke in itself.

For sure...as long as there is some acknowledgment of the original intent of the joke first. Maybe someone can hack away at this puzzle by the same author:
http://xkcd.com/74/

Title: Re: tough puzzle
Post by towr on Apr 25^th, 2008, 2:22pm

on 04/25/08 at 13:46:10, skeptic1000 wrote:

For sure...as long as there is some acknowledgment of the original intent of the joke first.

No, no, leaving that out is part of the extended joke. It works much better when people have doubts whether or not you got it was a joke.

Title: Re: tough puzzle
Post by BenVitale on Apr 28^th, 2008, 2:36pm

There doesn't seem to be a limit on the number of questions you can ask. So, ask each "Are you the guard of THAT door?" and point to the door that he is guarding. There will be either 2 yes's and 1 no, or 2 no's and 1 yes, depending on whether the stabbing guard is lying or telling the truth. You can therefore identify the lier or the truthful guard by the answer that has only 1 yes or no. (E.g. if there are two yes's and one no, the one that said no is the lier. Visa versa for the truthful guard.) You then direct a question to that guard (while pointing to another guard) "Does that guard always tell the truth?" Depending on your knowledge of who the truthful guard is, the answer would tell you who the truthful, lying guard and stabbing guards are.

Now ask the truthful guard "Do any of the doors lead to escape?" If the answer is no, then forget about it. If the answer is yes, then ask sequentially "Does that door lead to an escape?" If the door that leads to an escape is behind the stabbing guard, then forget about it. If it is behind the truthful or lying guard, your task becomes one of getting the stabbing guard to stab the target guard, by getting the target guard to ask a convoluted question.

Title: Re: tough puzzle
Post by skeptic1000 on Apr 30^th, 2008, 11:40am

on 04/25/08 at 14:22:08, towr wrote:

No, no, leaving that out is part of the extended joke. It works much better when people have doubts whether or not you got it was a joke.

Sure, but then the joke is on the person rather than on the joke. So you are insinuating that it is funny to make a fool of someone else on the board? That doesn't seem very nice to the poster. Unless of course he/she was just a pawn for your ultimate plan of drawing me into the discussion, in which case I would be the one not getting the joke. :) But I'm quite certain there was some sincerity in the original post.

Title: Re: tough puzzle
Post by skeptic1000 on Apr 30^th, 2008, 11:43am

on 04/28/08 at 14:36:35, BenVitale wrote:

So, ask each "Are you the guard of THAT door?"

I think that would be interpreted as a "tricky" question (since you are trying to TRICK them into giving you information), so the stabbing guard comes over and kills you.

Title: Re: tough puzzle
Post by BenVitale on Apr 30^th, 2008, 1:22pm

on 04/30/08 at 11:43:20, skeptic1000 wrote:

I think that would be interpreted as a "tricky" question (since you are trying to TRICK them into giving you information), so the stabbing guard comes over and kills you.

Why? I'm sorry but I don't see how this could be interpreted as a tricky question. I see it as a simple question.

Title: Re: tough puzzle
Post by skeptic1000 on Apr 30^th, 2008, 1:54pm

on 04/30/08 at 13:22:50, BenVitale wrote:

Why? I'm sorry but I don't see how this could be interpreted as a tricky question. I see it as a simple question.

So you are saying that "simple" and "tricky" are mutually exclusive? That is tough to prove, because certainly sometimes the simplest things can be tricky. (Have you ever tried to put together anything from IKEA?) And in this case the question is, by definition, tricky since you are trying to trick someone.

*EDIT: Maybe a better way to explain a "tricky question" would be to say that you are planning to use the response for a purpose other than the direct information that it contains.

Title: Re: tough puzzle
Post by towr on Apr 30^th, 2008, 2:02pm

on 04/30/08 at 11:40:04, skeptic1000 wrote:

Sure, but then the joke is on the person rather than on the joke. So you are insinuating that it is funny to make a fool of someone else on the board?

I don't think it makes a fool out of anyone. Besides, it's not directed at anyone in the first place. It's just having fun together being weird.
And if someone comes along that, understandably, doesn't get it, that hardly reflects badly on them; it just means their sanity is intact (nothing we can't fix ;)).

Quote:

in which case I would be the one not getting the joke. :)

I have to admit, the apparent exasperation in your first post of this thread still makes me smile involuntarily.

Title: Re: tough puzzle
Post by skeptic1000 on Apr 30^th, 2008, 3:05pm

on 04/28/08 at 14:36:35, BenVitale wrote:

There doesn't seem to be a limit on the number of questions you can ask.

Yes, there are a lot of things this one-frame comic doesn't specify. In the original riddle it is specified that the only thing you are allowed to do is ask one question. But by your logic, since the comic doesn't say that, then you can pretty much do anything. So when in Rome...

Why not just order the guards to ask your tricky questions for you? An order is not a question so you don't have to worry about getting stabbed that way, and since they are guards they are probably used to taking orders, right?

So you order one guard to ask the other guards "What door would the other guards tell me to pick?" Then the stabber either kills himself if you were lucky enough to pick him to ask the question (in which case you now know the answer based off of the solution to the original puzzle) or the stabber kills the guard who asked the question (thus exposing the stabber's identity). In the latter case you now order the stabber to ask the other living guard "Is the stabber alive"? The remaining guard answers and then the stabber kills himself upon realizing the implications of that question. If the guard answered "yes", then he tells the truth so now you just use your one question to ask him the correct door. If the guard answered "no", then you know he lies. And you already know one of the doors that isn't correct from his very first response, so now you use your one question to ask about one of the other two doors. (The stabber is dead now so you don't have to worry about him knowing that you are intentionally tricking the lying guard).

This answer only uses one question as the original riddle requires, and it stays true to the additional rule of the stabber always killing whenever any question is asked with an ulterior motive (a.k.a. tricky). The only additional assumption is that you can give out orders before you ask your one question.

Title: Re: tough puzzle
Post by BenVitale on Apr 30^th, 2008, 4:41pm

on 04/30/08 at 15:05:20, skeptic1000 wrote:

.... Why not just order the guards to ask your tricky questions for you? An order is not a question so you don't have to worry about getting stabbed that way, and since they are guards they are probably used to taking orders, right?....

That's tricky! I don't believe that would work. The guard will perceive it as a tricky situation, he will see it as you're trying to trick you. Hence he may stab you.

Do you agree?

Title: Re: tough puzzle
Post by skeptic1000 on May 1^st, 2008, 6:21am

on 04/30/08 at 16:41:39, BenVitale wrote:

That's tricky! I don't believe that would work. The guard will perceive it as a tricky situation, he will see it as you're trying to trick you. Hence he may stab you.

Do you agree?

I agree that ordering the guards to do things is tricky, but it specifically says the third guard stabs people that ASK tricky questions. You can BE tricky without ASKING a tricky question. The guard might perceive it as tricky a situation, but when he realizes there's no question mark involved he won't be able to stab you.