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        riddles >> hard >> Chess Game Reconstruction
        
(Message started by: FiBsTeR on Jun 2^nd, 2007, 7:11pm)

Title: Chess Game Reconstruction
Post by FiBsTeR on Jun 2^nd, 2007, 7:11pm

Quote:

A game begins with 1.e4 and ends in the fifth move with knight takes rook mate. Reconstruct the game.

Hey all,
I've been really interested in this problem for quite some time now. I was surprised that I couldn't find this problem in this forum (perhaps I didn't search well enough?

Anyway, I couldn't find a 5 move solution, but I found this 6 move solution:

[hideb]
1. e4 f6
2. Nf3 g5
3. Ne5 a6
4. Nf7 a5
5. Qh5 a4
6. Nxh8 ++
[/hideb]

Note this is just a variation of the 2-move checkmate.

My reasoning was that [hide]if one move is for e4 and it takes the knight another four moves to reach the rook at h8, there must be some sixth move for mate. Did I perhaps misinterpret the question to mean 5 moves after e4? Does anyone know a 5 move solution?[/hide]

Title: Re: Chess Game Reconstruction
Post by ThudanBlunder on Jun 3^rd, 2007, 3:18am

Quote:

Does anyone know a 5 move solution?

Yes, I do. But I am not anyone. :P I am the one who sent the puzzle to William.

Actually, it is Black that mates on the 5th move.

Welcome to the forum!

Title: Re: Chess Game Reconstruction
Post by palmerim on Jun 11^th, 2007, 10:46am

The game starts 1. e4 and ends in the 5th move with a knight takes rook mate.

I have the solution!! May I show it here or it is not permited?
Palmerim

Title: Re: Chess Game Reconstruction
Post by palmerim on Jun 11^th, 2007, 10:55am

Well, as nobody answers me i will send the solution now:

1. e4 Nf6
2. f3 Nxe4
3. Qe2 Ng3
4. Qxe7+ Qxe7+
5. Kf2 Nxh1#

Palmerim

Title: Re: Chess Game Reconstruction
Post by towr on Jun 11^th, 2007, 11:00am

on 06/11/07 at 10:46:37, palmerim wrote:

I have the solution!! May I show it here or it is not permited?

Yes it's ok.

And you already have now anyway :P

Title: Re: Chess Game Reconstruction
Post by Hippo on Jun 12^th, 2007, 2:37pm

Good job.
I have thought about it several times and the possibility to infiltrate black queen to E7 never came to my mind.
I have tried mating by taking rook elsewhere with no success.

Was it proved to be the only solution? How many 5+4moves exists where at least 3 black moves are made by the same kNight (roughly)? ... How many nodes will be searched if adding good heurisic which says 5th move will not mate by NxR mate ... how the heuristic will look like ... no, I am joking ...I realy have no time to investigate it.

Title: Re: Chess Game Reconstruction
Post by ThudanBlunder on Jun 12^th, 2007, 3:03pm

on 06/12/07 at 14:37:41, Hippo wrote:

Was it proved to be the only solution?

Yes, that is 'provable' using a free downloadable solving program called Natch (http://natch.free.fr/Natch.html).

Title: Re: Chess Game Reconstruction
Post by Hippo on Jun 13^th, 2007, 3:26am

on 06/12/07 at 15:03:01, ThudanBlunder wrote:

Yes, that is 'provable' using a free downloadable solving program called Natch (http://natch.free.fr/Natch.html).

Nice link ... thanks

Title: Re: Chess Game Reconstruction
Post by SWF on Jun 13^th, 2007, 6:35am

There is a 4 year old thread for this one, but it is under the title SelfHelpMate in 5 (http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~wwu/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=riddles_hard;action=display;num=1049921841).

Title: Re: Chess Game Reconstruction
Post by Hippo on Jun 16^th, 2007, 7:37am

on 06/12/07 at 15:03:01, ThudanBlunder wrote:

Yes, that is 'provable' using a free downloadable solving program called Natch (http://natch.free.fr/Natch.html).

Now I've had a time downloading Natch (dos version) and reading the readme's and example. I dindn't find an option to say the last move is SxR mate without showing the final position. So either one should use the other distribution or there is something i've missed.

SWF: When I was scanning all threads I've skipped/missed this one (it would be interested for me) thanks for link.

Title: Re: Chess Game Reconstruction
Post by ThudanBlunder on Jun 17^th, 2007, 3:37pm

on 06/16/07 at 07:37:38, Hippo wrote:

Now I've had a time downloading Natch (dos version) and reading the readme's and example. I dindn't find an option to say the last move is SxR mate without showing the final position.

Yes, you are right, Hippo. But I think it most probable that this is the only solution (ignoring transposable moves) that satisfies the stipulation.

http://www.chessbase.com/puzzle/puzz05d.htm

You might also enjoy finding a game that ends with
1) Black mating with 5.Rook to h1 (no capture)
2) White mating with 6.g7 takes f8 by promoting to a knight

Title: Re: Chess Game Reconstruction
Post by FiBsTeR on Jun 17^th, 2007, 7:11pm

on 06/17/07 at 15:37:54, ThudanBlunder wrote:

1) Black mating with 5. Rook to h1 (no capture)

8)
It took longer than it should have, but finally:
[hideb]
1 e3 h5
2 Qxh5 Rxh5
3 Nh3 Rxh3
4 Be2 Rxh2
5 Kf1 Rxh1

It took me a while to realize that the king should block the bishop's return to f1 instead of the bishop having to make a 2nd move.
[/hideb]

EDIT: GAHHHH! NO CAPTURE!!!

What a waste of a half hour. :'(

Title: Re: Chess Game Reconstruction
Post by Hippo on Jun 18^th, 2007, 5:36am

on 06/17/07 at 15:37:54, ThudanBlunder wrote:

http://www.chessbase.com/puzzle/puzz05d.htm

I feel much better after reading the article ;). Sometimes its better to resign than to try to find an answer for very difficult puzzle ;).
The other possibility is to program likeNatch yourself ...

I was convinced there is no solution ;) ...
(Generaly its NPC question, but 5 moves and so many constrains ... just small constant;) )

Title: Re: Chess Game Reconstruction
Post by FiBsTeR on Jun 18^th, 2007, 7:08am

Bah, I've given up on the first one, I'll come back to it.

on 06/17/07 at 15:37:54, ThudanBlunder wrote:

2) White mating with 6.g7 takes f8 by promoting to a knight

I deduced at first that [hide]since white only gets 1 other move besides the pawn moves, there should be some help from one of the officers (rook, queen, maybe bishop on h2).[/hide]

Also, [hide] the only places that the king can be is d7 or e6, since h7 is too far away. e6, however, requires an extra king move, so I think I can confidently say that that is out of the question.[/hide]

Then, [hide]something needs to block the king's escape to the 6th row. The first option is probably knight at c6 and pawn at d6. The other option is to have the white rook cover the whole row. Not sure which is more efficient in terms of moves yet...[/hide]

Lastly, perhaps the biggest problem I've had with this, [hide] the king's return to e5 needs to be blocked as well. The most obvious that sticks out to me is the knight at g8, taking 2 moves to e8. This, however, leaves f8 open to the h8 rook...[/hide]

Well, that's all I've figured out so far, maybe someone else can take all of this and find an answer. :-/

Title: Re: Chess Game Reconstruction
Post by FiBsTeR on Jun 18^th, 2007, 7:16am

HAHAHA! I read over my post and the last line gave me the answer!

I had incorrectly said that [hide]the g8 knight should block e8, when actually the b2 knight can get there in 3 moves![/hide] ;D ;D

So finally:
[hideb]1 h4 d5
2 h5 Nd7
3 h6 Nf6
4 hxg7 Kd7
5 Rh6 Ne8
6 gxf8=N ++[/hideb]

Now back to the first one. >:(

Title: Re: Chess Game Reconstruction
Post by ThudanBlunder on Jun 18^th, 2007, 9:29am

That's right, FiBsTeR.

Title: Re: Chess Game Reconstruction
Post by FiBsTeR on Jun 18^th, 2007, 12:36pm

I still haven't solved the first one (rook to h1, no capture), although I found another black mate in 5 ~~with rook to h1~~ in which a black pawn is promted at h1 to rook for mate. It's not radically difficult, but if someone is bored and has a chessboard in front of their computer (sounds like me on some/most days)... :P

I'll get it soon, though.

Title: Re: Chess Game Reconstruction
Post by ThudanBlunder on Jul 12^th, 2007, 9:21am

on 06/18/07 at 12:36:38, FiBsTeR wrote:

I still haven't solved the first one (rook to h1, no capture).......I'll get it soon, though.

Zzzzzzzz.......

Title: Re: Chess Game Reconstruction
Post by FiBsTeR on Jul 12^th, 2007, 10:57am

Oops. :-[

Title: Re: Chess Game Reconstruction
Post by ThudanBlunder on Jul 12^th, 2007, 11:43am

[quote author=FiBsTeR link=board=riddles_hard;num=;start=0#18 date=07/12/07 at 10:57:19]Oops. :-[/quote]
No problemo (http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~flab/chess/chess.html )

Title: Re: Chess Game Reconstruction
Post by snozwuncle on Jan 25^th, 2013, 1:52am

In case anyone's interested, I found (probably the only) solution to the problem of
Black mating with 5. Rook to h1 (no capture):
1. g4 h5
2. Bg2 hxg4
3. Bxb7 Rxh2
4. Nh3 Bxb7
5. O-O Rh1#

Cool problems!