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        riddles >> hard >> Past, Present, Future
        
(Message started by: Rupert on Jul 30th, 2002, 5:25pm)
Title: Past, Present, Future
Post by Rupert on Jul 30th, 2002, 5:25pm
What if I ask Past first or Future last? Which question will they answer?
Title: Re: Past, Present, Future
Post by jkemp on Jul 30th, 2002, 7:22pm
I assumed that Past, if asked first, would say nothing; similarly, if I asked Future last, he would say nothing.

I believe I can identify Past Present & Future in only 2 questions.
Title: Possible solution?
Post by srowen on Jul 30th, 2002, 7:50pm
Yeah, I think this needs some clarification. If in fact Past/Future are silent in those cases, then you need just three of the same question: "Are you the god Present?"

Is this what you guys are thinking?

Ask one of them. If the god is silent, it's Past. The next to answer will tell you definitively which is Present, and thus Future.

If the first god answers, it is telling you whether it is Future or Past, essentially. If it's Future, same argument as above - next question gets it.

If the first god is Present, you need to ask two more. If the last god doesn't answer, it's Future, otherwise the second one was.


Now, regardless, I wonder what happens if we assume time is circular, whatever, and that Future will answer your *first* question if asked last, and Past will answer your last one if asked first. Then what? That's probably the intent.
Title: Re: Past, Present, Future
Post by jkemp on Jul 30th, 2002, 8:02pm
Assuming non-circular answers (i.e. Past and Future are silent when they can't answer), you can work it out in just two questions.

Ask god #1: "Are you Past?"
- Past would remain silent
- Present would say "No"
- Future would say "Yes" (see next question)

Ask god #2 (someone else than #1): "Are you Future?"
- Past would reply "Yes"
- Present would reply "No"
- Future would remain silent

By elimination two questions would allow you to determine who is who.

If the first god answers "No", you know he is Present. If the second god answers "Yes", you know he is Past, and the third god is Future. If the second god remains silent, you know he is Future, and the third god is Past.

If the first god answers "Yes", you know he is Future. If the second god answers "Yes", you know he is Past, and the third god is Present. If the second god answers "No", you know he is Present, and the third god is Past.

If the first god doesn't reply, you know he is Past. This means you have to change your second question to "Are you present?". If the second god replies "Yes", you know he is Present and the third god is Future. If the second god doesn't reply, you know he is Future and the third god is Present.
Title: Re: Past, Present, Future UPDATE
Post by william wu on Jul 31st, 2002, 1:21pm
This riddle has been updated by the creator, Eric Yeh, so that it is more clear. Note that the gods speak their own language -- they may not assign the same meaning to the word "Yes" that we do.


* * *


There are three omniscient gods sitting in a chamber:  Past, Present and Future.  They are all truthful, but with the following caveat:  Present answers the question currently being asked, Past answers the last question asked in their chamber, and Future answers the next question which will be asked in their chamber.  Furthermore, they answer in a language which no one else understands, so that while their "yes"'s and "no"'s are consistent amongst themselves, you do not know which is "yes" and which is "no".  With three questions, you must determine which god is which.

Because of possible time conflicts, you must determine your questions ahead of time, rather than based on previous answers.  You are, however, allowed to choose who you ask each of your three questions to dynamically, and scoping is also dynamic (e.g. the pronoun "you" in a question will always refer to the person you choose to ask the question to, not a predetermined person).  No time related questions (e.g., "if the answer to my second question was 'no', then...  otherwise ...") are permissible, as this could lead to paradoxes within the space-time continuum).  Finally, note that if you ask Past your first question or Future your last question, the answer will give you no additional information because you do not know what the last or next questions are!

* * *




thanks eric  :)
Title: Re: Past, Present, Future
Post by Eric Yeh on Jul 31st, 2002, 1:41pm
Come on guys, you didn't think I'd make it that easy, did you??  Plus, I'd have to be a bit dense to not get it with two questions if they remained silent as described above.  (Past, Present, Future II:  How low would Eric's IQ have to be for him to need three questions to solve PPF I if interpreted as above?  ;) ) That's ok though -- since it is listed as an original riddle and none of you know me, it was fair enough to think it possible that I could be some total idiot.  BUT, now that it's been properly and fully phrased, please let me know what you all think!!!!!

Happy puzzling,
Eric
eyeh@post.harvard.edu
Title: A trick question?
Post by Aleksi Liimatainen on Aug 1st, 2002, 3:51am
I may have missed something, but this riddle seems impossible to be solved with yes/no-questions. It looks like there will always be some ambiguity left after you've asked the 3 questions, though I haven't been able to prove it.

Instead, I'll try to side-step the language barrier.
My solution fits the constraints given for the questions, but it might be considered cheating anyway  :)

My solution:

The Questions:
"Please point at Future."
"Please point at Future."
"Please point at Present."

Ask the first two questions from the same person (call him A).
Call the first one he points at (besides himself) B. The third one is C.

If A points twice at a same person (not himself), that one is Future. Ask A the third one. If he is Past, he'll point at Future again. Present points at himself. The C is who's left.

If A points first at himself, then at someone else, he's either Past or Future. Future is either A or B. C can't be Future, so he must be Past or Present. Ask third question from C. If he points at himself, he is Present. Otherwise, he is Past and points at A, who is Future. Present is B.

In all other combinations of answers, A must be Past. Ignore his first answer. He answered the second question by pointing at Future. The one left is Present. Ask the third question from anyone you like, just to be sure you don't accidentally wreck the space-time continuum  ;)
Title: Re: Past, Present, Future
Post by Eric Yeh on Aug 1st, 2002, 6:40am
Sorry Aleksi, yes/no questions only.

If you finish your proof that there is no solution, I'll buy you dinner.   ;)

Good luck,
Eric
Title: Re: Past, Present, Future
Post by bartleby on Aug 1st, 2002, 9:59am
Eric -

Do all the gods speak the same language?  For example, if "foo" = "yes" for Past then all the gods will use "foo" for "yes"?

Do all the gods understand each other?  For example, if I ask god #1 a question, and he answers "foo", then can I assume god #2 knows what answer god #1 gave, and what it means?  (Although this probably isn't important, because I think you're trying to prevent questions like "God #2, would you answer the same as God #1 to the same question?")

Are we to assume that we are one questioner in a continuum of questioners, meaning that if I ask a question to god #1 who turns out to be Past, and he says "bleem", that "bleem" might be the answer to the last question the PREVIOUS questioner asked?
Title: Re: Past, Present, Future
Post by bartleby on Aug 1st, 2002, 10:05am
Eric,

Never mind about those first 2 questions in my previous post, they were stupid questions, of course the answers are "Yes" and "Doesn't matter", but the third question is still important.
Title: Re: Past, Present, Future
Post by Eric Yeh on Aug 1st, 2002, 10:14am
Bartleby,

1)  You are correct that the first answer is "yes" -- that's what I meant by "consistent amongst themselves".

2)  This would seem to be permissible to me.  I think your parenthetical question is acceptable, actually, as long as it doesn't violate any of the timing aspects.  Basically anything that would not be a paradox (in the vein of "this statement is false") would be allowed.

3)  Yes, that was my intention, but I'm not sure I see the relevance.  Can you explain further how it might affect the solution?

Best,
Eric
Title: Re: Past, Present, Future
Post by bartleby on Aug 1st, 2002, 11:03am
Eric,

The trouble I'm running into is that I've got a grid, there are 27 different permutations for the order that I question the gods.  If there is another questioner questioning before me, and one after me, and I ask Past first, or Future last, I get an answer that is randomly "spoo" or "fleem".  Not only do I not know what the answer means, I don't know if he's answering my question or not, so this multiplies out my decision grid in an ugly way... want to know if this is something I need to solve or not.
Title: Re: Past, Present, Future
Post by bartleby on Aug 1st, 2002, 11:10am
Eric --  Can I ask questions of the sort, "Are you answering the question that I am asking you right now?"?
Title: Re: Past, Present, Future
Post by Eric Yeh on Aug 1st, 2002, 11:12am
Bartleby,

Sure you can.  But Present is the only one who would actually answer it (at this point in time).   ;)

Best,
Eric
Title: Time-shifting questions?
Post by Aleksi Liimatainen on Aug 1st, 2002, 11:52pm
Can you ask multi-part questions with different parts addressed to different deities?

Eg: "If you are Past, are you Past, or, if you are Present, is the one on your left Future, or, if you are Future, is the one on your right Present?"
Title: Re: Past, Present, Future
Post by Eric Yeh on Aug 2nd, 2002, 5:32am
Aleksi,

Sure, I suppose there's nothing about that construct that would make it illegal.  Of course, it would still be subject to the time-shifting, so for example in your question below, "if you are past, are you past" is equivalent to "are you past".

But note that as in most of the truth-teller genre of puzzles, a truly elegant solution uses very few if any such conditions.

Best,
Eric
Title: Re: Past, Present, Future
Post by icon on Aug 2nd, 2002, 5:59am
hehe this 1 is lot harder than 2 road guys

problem is this: u need probably to ask least 1 question to each person and my guess 1 be enough

this has to follow strong logic in my view since you would have to assume lot of things and follow same logic to be successfull

now i didnt get this 1 yet but am thinking what can be said :>
Title: Re: Past, Present, Future
Post by Eric Yeh on Aug 2nd, 2002, 6:13am
Phshew!  At least we're more in agreement on this thread  `:)

;)

(Hey Will, why no automated sweat smiley??)
Title: Re: Past, Present, Future
Post by Jonathan the Red on Aug 2nd, 2002, 5:06pm
Request for clarification:

God A is Present, God B is Past, God C is Future. Splunge means "yes", Fleen means "no."

I ask God A: "Are you Past?" He answers "Fleen."
I then ask God B: "Will the world ever be freed from the scourge of Carrot Top?" or some other question; it doesn't matter, because he's gonna answer the question I asked God A.

The question is: does he answer "Splunge" because that's the correct answer to "Are you Past?", or does he answer "Fleen" because that's the correct answer to "Is God A Past?"

The problem specifies "dynamic scoping", so I suspect the former, but want to make sure.
Title: Re: Past, Present, Future
Post by Eric Yeh on Aug 2nd, 2002, 5:29pm
Splunge me, baby.  ;)
Title: Re: Past, Present, Future
Post by Jonathan the Red on Aug 2nd, 2002, 7:05pm
What an awesome puzzle! Got a solution, but I must admit I cheated:

(in black to prevent spoilage):


First off, the bit about the different language is a very minor hurdle. For any proposition P, you can ask someone: "Does 'splunge' mean 'yes' if and only if P?" The answer to this question will be 'splunge' if P is true, 'fleen' if it isn't. For the remainder of my solving effort, I'll be pretending the Gods answer Yes or No.

Label the Gods A, B, and C.

Question 1: Is God A Past?  -- directed to God A
Question 2: Is God A not Past? -- directed to God B
Question 3: Are you Future? -- directed to God C if the answer to question #2 is Yes, to God B otherwise

The proof is left as an exercise for the reader ;) Many other solutions exist. All of them require at least one "conditional" question... that is, a question that will be directed at a different God depending on the last answer.
Title: Re: Past, Present, Future
Post by Eric Yeh on Aug 2nd, 2002, 7:13pm
Thanks dude!!!  Glad you enjoyed it!!!!!  :D  But what do you mean you "cheated"?  Since very few people in the world have seen this problem thus far, there aren't many ways you can hack a solution!!!

(I'll check your soln in a sec...)
Title: Re: Past, Present, Future
Post by Eric Yeh on Aug 2nd, 2002, 7:30pm
(Ok, sorry, just had to finish something on the phone there.)

Yep, your soln works -- very elegant!!

But you're giving away my secret about the language barrier, o no!  :o  ;)

And yes, there are plenty of solns, and they do all require that dynamic portion.  Too bad -- it would be cool if there were a static one.  But I guess you and I know why that cannot be.

BUT, it's still a good exercise for the arbitrary reader to figure out why the dynamic question is required, so if you're a new reader...  go for it!!!  :)

Best,
Eric
Title: Re: Past, Present, Future
Post by Jonathan the Red on Aug 3rd, 2002, 9:10pm

Quote:
But what do you mean you "cheated"?  Since very few people in the world have seen this problem thus far, there aren't many ways you can hack a solution!!!


Well, it depends on the definition of "cheated." I, er, wrote a computer program to brute-force the solution. The one I posted was the very first solution it came up with; other solutions it found are much more elegant. I can post them if there's any interest.

So is that "cheating?" Some would say that it is... the problem is intended to be solved using logical reasoning and having a computer brute-force its way to a solution circumvents that. Others would say that I had to use my brain to devise a computer program that would do the job, so it wasn't really cheating.

It's a philosophical point that can probably never truly be answered, but I tend to lean toward calling it cheating.
Title: Re: Past, Present, Future
Post by Eric Yeh on Aug 3rd, 2002, 9:34pm
Intriguing!!!  I wouldn't have thought this would be a very computer solvable problem!!  In fact, part of my intention when devising it was in particular to avoid using "the usual" algorithm for solving these truth-teller questions.

I'm very curious to hear more about the program, although maybe this isn't the right forum for it.  I can't think how I'd plan such a program myself, in fact.  I'd be impressed if your program could proveably guarantee finding the answer to similar problems, if they exist...

Best,
Eric
Title: Re: Past, Present, Future
Post by Jonathan the Red on Aug 5th, 2002, 9:39am
Well, here's a link (http://www.butterfly-ballot.com/PastPresentFuture.cpp) to the program.

Keep in mind (please!) that this is NOT my best code by any means... it's extremely quick and dirty. As I said, it's very brute-force... it basically goes through every possible combination of questions and Gods and determines which produce unique solutions. It comes up with 576 answers, but there's at least 6-fold symmetry and probably more.
Title: Re: Past, Present, Future
Post by Eric Yeh on Aug 5th, 2002, 10:26am
I beg to differ on your answers to "Is Water Wet".   ;)

(Ok, maybe not.   :) )

First off:  nice program!  Anything that finds a solution is already pretty nice, of course.

However, as I suspected, you have to feed it a finite number of questions, whereas there are potentially infinitely many.  Ok, maybe there are only 218 or something like that, and maybe it collapses further, but in any case it's something bigger than 34, right?  I would suspect that, having seen the code, I could probably devise a new problem specified to stump it...

Or have I missed something, and these thirty-four questions actually somehow span?

Best,
Eric
Title: Re: Past, Present, Future
Post by Jonathan_the_Red on Aug 5th, 2002, 10:39am
Oh, I'm certainly not claiming that the set of questions is exhaustive... in fact, it definitely isn't. I was able to increase the solution set to 744 (including trivial 6-way symmetry) by adding "Are you earlier than [A|B|C]" and "Is water dry" to the domain of questions. And I'm sure you could get even more solutions by adding compound questions ("Are you future or is God B Past?" "Is God C Future if and only if you are not later than God A?" etc etc etc). My goal was not to come up with every possible solution, just one.
Title: Re: Past, Present, Future
Post by Eric Yeh on Aug 5th, 2002, 10:57am
Jon,

Fair enough; I wasn't sure whether you were making the claim or not  :)  An I would also have been curious if there was a way to prove that your set spanned.

On another note: cool, you've finally registered!!!  I'll be looking forward to your continued posts!  :)

Best,
Eric
Title: Re: Past, Present, Future
Post by Chronos on Aug 6th, 2002, 2:38pm
Quoth Jonathan the Red:
Quote:
The question is: does he answer "Splunge" because that's the correct answer to "Are you Past?", or does he answer "Fleen" because that's the correct answer to "Is God A Past?"
The pronoun "you" must reference the god currently being addressed, rather than the god addressed when a question is asked.  Otherwise, we can get paradoces involving the prescient god Future, since you can choose of whom you ask each question.  To use your example:  A is present, B is past, C is future, Splunge is yes, Fleen is no.

My first question is the irellevant Carrot Top one.  My second question is "Are you Present?".

Now, I ask my first question of god C.  Since he's Future, he ignores the Carrot Top question, and instead tells me the answer to question 2.  But he can't tell me whether the person I ask question 2 is Present, because I haven't yet decided who I will ask question 2, so we can get paradoces.  He must interpret "you" to mean himself.

On another note, Jonathan the Red's solution to the language barrier only works if you know that "splunge" is one of the words the gods use.  If you've just entered the chamber, you probably don't know anything about their language.  

However, there's still no barrier.  If the gods are truly omniscient, then they know English, and they do not desire to deceive.  Therefore, you just request that they respond in English, rather than in their native tongue.
Title: Re: Past, Present, Future
Post by Eric Yeh on Aug 6th, 2002, 2:46pm
Go Chronos!  I see you are already an expert on my puzzle!  ;)  :)  You know, there's something quite cathartic about seeing someone else give explanations for your problem!  :D

Best,
Eric
Title: Re: Past, Present, Future
Post by Jonathan_the_Red on Aug 6th, 2002, 3:38pm

on 08/06/02 at 14:38:55, Chronos wrote:
To use your example:  A is present, B is past, C is future, Splunge is yes, Fleen is no.

My first question is the irellevant Carrot Top one.  My second question is "Are you Present?".

Now, I ask my first question of god C.  Since he's Future, he ignores the Carrot Top question, and instead tells me the answer to question 2.  But he can't tell me whether the person I ask question 2 is Present, because I haven't yet decided who I will ask question 2, so we can get paradoces.  He must interpret "you" to mean himself.

[...]

However, there's still no barrier.  If the gods are truly omniscient, then they know English, and they do not desire to deceive.  


If the Gods are truly omniscient, Future knows full well to whom you will direct the next question. For crying out loud, he already has to predict the future in order to know what your question is so that he may answer it; you think he's not capable of divining the target as well?

In any case, the problem is solvable without using the word "you." Here's a set of questions that works:

(highlight below to read)
--------------

Question #1: Is B Future? (asked of God A)
Question #2: Is B Present? (asked of God A)
Question #3: Is A Future? (asked of God C if the answer to #2 was yes, God A if no.)

--------------
Title: Re: Past, Present, Future
Post by Eric Yeh on Aug 6th, 2002, 8:31pm
No no Jon, your answer was right the first time.  (Well, this one is right, too, but unnecessary.)  Unless I am reading it totally incorrectly, Chronos' message did not invalidate your previous soln, which also used dynamic scoping in the proper way.

Chronos:  you are correct that I slipped up when I reworded the problem recently -- it was originally a "da and ya" problem, but I took too much of a poetic license in the rewrite.  Sometime I will get Will to fix this.

Best,
Eric
Title: Re: Past, Present, Future
Post by Ryan Lawrence on Aug 7th, 2002, 12:10am
Hallo,

When you rewrite the problem, you may want to clarify the "rules" of the questioning. I've had a few people look at the riddle and none of them could really figure out who would answer which question and when :) For example, if I asked Future the first question would it answer at all and when?

It is difficult to discern the answer to a riddle when you do not know exactly how the elements are going to react.
Title: Re: Past, Present, Future
Post by Eric Yeh on Aug 7th, 2002, 5:53am
Ryan,

Each god (always the one asked), always answers the question immediately.  The only difference made by their "personalities" is which question they choose to answer.  In your example, Future immediately answers the second question in the first round.

In general, a good way to check this sort of thing is to ask whether the question makes "sense" in the different scenarios.  In any case where the answers come temorally shifted as well, it is easy to solve in two questions instead of [relatively] hard to solve in three; thus, it would not make "sense" for me to ask that you solve it in three.  I understand, however, that you have no reason as yet to trust me as not just being an idiot.  :)

To the open audience:

Does anyone else have any other complaints about the wording of my puzzle?  I thought it was worded in a fairly clear manner, but I see that there is always room for alternate interpretations.  Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

Best,
Eric
Title: Re: Past, Present, Future
Post by Eric Yeh on Aug 8th, 2002, 1:44pm
Ok, I've gotten no replies to this.  :(  So here's what I've come up with so far on my own:

-----

PAST, PRESENT, AND FUTURE

There are three omniscient gods sitting in a chamber:  Past, Present and Future.  They are all truthful, but with the following caveat:  Present answers the question currently being asked, Past answers the last question asked in their chamber, and Future answers the next question which will be asked in their chamber.  Despite their manipulation of which question to answer, each still answers immediately as if answering the question currently being asked.

Furthermore, the gods answer in a language in which "yes" and "no" are replaced by "da" and "ya", but you do not know which is which.  You only know that their answers are consistent amongst themselves.

With three questions, determine which god is which.

[Notes:

Standard:  (Rules that are generally assumed unless otherwise noted.) The gods only answer yes/no questions.  Each god answers in the single word of their language as appropriate to the question; i.e. each god always gives one of only two possible responses, one affirmative and one negative (e.g. they would always answer "Yes" rather  than "That would be true").  Each question asked must be addressed to a single specific god; asking one question to all the gods would constitute three questions.  Asking a single god multiple questions is permissible.  The question you choose to ask and the god you choose to address may be dynamically chosen based on the answers to previous questions.

Specific:  Because of possible time conflicts, you must determine your questions ahead of time, rather than based on previous answers.  However, you are still allowed to choose who you ask each of your three questions to dynamically.  Scoping is also dynamic; e.g. the pronoun "you" in a question will always refer to the person to whom you are currently asking a question, not a predetermined person).  No time  related questions (e.g., "if the answer to my second question was 'no', then X otherwise Y") are permissible, as this could lead to paradoxes within the space-time continuum).  Finally, note that if you ask Past your first question or Future you last question, the answer will give you no additional information because you do not know what the last or next questions are!!]

-----

I've tried to hit every possible question I've gotten about this, and I think it's pretty comprehensive.  Any thoughts?  Ryan, does this clear up all the issues you had?

Will, could you post this for me?

Semi-random shameless plug:  I have another new one coming!!  Watch for it on the message board!!  This one was inspired by some of the experiences I've had here, so many thanks to those who have looked at my puzzle and discussed it with me!  If you guys enjoyed this one, please give my new one a shot, too.  It is specifically designed as anti-Jon, anti-program.  ;)  ;)  ;)  Haha, jk, you know I love you Jon.

Best,
Eric
Title: Re: Past, Present, Future
Post by Chronos on Aug 15th, 2002, 12:20pm

Quote:
If the Gods are truly omniscient, Future knows full well to whom you will direct the next question. For crying out loud, he already has to predict the future in order to know what your question is so that he may answer it; you think he's not capable of divining the target as well?
In general, precognition will lead to paradoces.  Yes, Future knows who the target of your question will be, but what if you choose the target of your question based on Future's answer?  Suppose, for instance, that before you ask any questions, you guess which god is which, and which word is which, and you happen to be right (this is certainly possible). You then decide "If Future tells me that the next question will be asked of Present, then I'll ask it of Past, instead".  This would make Future wrong, which is against the premises of the riddle.

Eric gets around this by setting up the problem so that Future doesn't actually need precognition.  You have all of your questions chosen ahead of time, so he doesn't need to see the future to know your question, he just has to read your mind (a much easier proposition).  And he doesn't need to know who you're going to ask the questions of, since the pronoun "you" will refer to himself anyway.  Strictly speaking, you need to disallow any questions about the questioner's future actions:  Otherwise, you could ask "Am I about to stick out my tongue", or some such.

And Eric, I'm not an expert on this puzzle specifically; I just have a lifelong obsession with time travel, causality paradoces, and related matters ;)
Title: Re: Past, Present, Future
Post by Eric Yeh on Aug 15th, 2002, 12:34pm

on 08/15/02 at 12:20:25, Chronos wrote:
You have all of your questions chosen ahead of time, so he doesn't need to see the future to know your question, he just has to read your mind (a much easier proposition).

Much easier indeed!!  :D


on 08/15/02 at 12:20:25, Chronos wrote:
And Eric, I'm not an expert on this puzzle specifically; I just have a lifelong obsession with time travel, causality paradoces, and related matters ;)

No problem dude, you offer an excellent explanation as usual!!  :)

Best,
Eric
Title: Re: Past, Present, Future
Post by Hippo on Mar 18th, 2007, 9:46am
I agree with chronos (btw: well chosen name) ... the problem with puzzle is that you must dynamically switch question targets and that can lead to "this statement is false" paradoxes. ... so we will need 4 answers ... yes/no/paradox unsatisfable/paradox always satisfable.  

The other (smaller) problem was mentioned by chronos, too ... you need to know one of the words the gods use for yes/no. (At least for Jonathan solution).

Of course you cannot distinguish 2.3!=12 initial cases by 3 yes/no questions so you cannot find which word means yes and which no.
Title: Re: Past, Present, Future
Post by Eric Yeh on Mar 18th, 2007, 8:56pm
hippo,

i dont think youve read chronos' msg quite correctly.  its been a long time and i just looked quickly, but my understanding/recollection is that his msg was a defense rather than attack on the problem.  see how he says "eric gets around this by..."

in any case:

1.  i believe that i had gotten rid of all paradoxes with the proposition that there are no time related questions allowed.  however, feel free to give me an example just in case that is not enough.  if absolutely necessary, i can always reword it to say that anything that could allow for a paradox in any permutation would be impermissible to the gods.  in any case, it is pretty clearly unnecessary to use any such trickery to solve the problem, so its just a problem plug that i dont think anyone should particularly focus on.

2.  i seem to have reworded it on aug 8 2002 so that this is not an issue.  however i am rather tempted to say that using the 'gods of gibberland' innovation should work in this case too, but dont feel like taking the time to test this just now.  i am also surprised that i did not use that innovation back in 2002, which leads me to slightly suspect that perhaps it doesnt work.  anyway, ill let someone else figure it out.
Title: Re: Past, Present, Future
Post by srn347 on Aug 27th, 2007, 10:05am
What if I ask:

question 1-to god 1-does 1+1=2
question 2-god 2-is the answer to the next question yes
question 3-god 3-does 1+1=3

This is without the language thing though. I am not sure how this one works, but I know it works.
Title: Re: Past, Present, Future
Post by temporary on Jan 27th, 2008, 3:15pm
Perhaps there is a way to use these paradoxes to my advantage...
For example, if I ask a"am I going to ask b the next question" and I plan on asking b the next question if he says no, or a or c if he says yes, and the universe starts falling apart, I know that either a is present, or I am going to ask past my next question.
Title: Re: Past, Present, Future
Post by Shelter417 on Oct 20th, 2008, 2:41pm
Any chance of someone posting the proofs?  This is a very interesting puzzle.


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