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        riddles >> general problem-solving / chatting / whatever >> Ringtone during Chess ?
        
(Message started by: JiNbOtAk on Oct 8th, 2010, 12:31am)
Title: Ringtone during Chess ?
Post by JiNbOtAk on Oct 8th, 2010, 12:31am
http://thestar.com.my/lifestyle/story.asp?file=/2010/10/8/lifefocus/7172414&sec=lifefocus

I didn't know it's an offense. Why the heck though ??
Title: Re: Ringtone during Chess ?
Post by towr on Oct 8th, 2010, 1:33am
Are you asking why they're an offense?
It breaks people's concentration. You're not allowed to distract other players.
Aside from that, I would think you'd be banned from having any device on your person that could run a chess-program.
Title: Re: Ringtone during Chess ?
Post by rmsgrey on Oct 8th, 2010, 9:43am
From the sound of things, it's acceptable to have a mobile phone set on silent with you (which rules out the "communication channel" and "computational device" reasons for the penalty).

Based on the conditions for incurring a loss, it's the causing of a disruption that's an issue, not any other concern.
Title: Re: Ringtone during Chess ?
Post by JiNbOtAk on Oct 14th, 2010, 4:25am
Yeah..I guess you can't concentrate with any noise. Is that the reason why tennis game are silent as well ?  ::)
Title: Re: Ringtone during Chess ?
Post by towr on Oct 14th, 2010, 5:53am

on 10/14/10 at 04:25:26, JiNbOtAk wrote:
Yeah..I guess you can't concentrate with any noise. Is that the reason why tennis game are silent as well ?  ::)
It's why the public has to be quiet while they're actually playing, yes. Between serve and point, the audience is to keep their traps shut. And perhaps some day they'll tell the female players (in particular) to stop groaning so abominably as well.
Although, really, a physical sport doesn't tend to require as much concentration, or the same kind, as a mental sport like chess.
Title: Re: Ringtone during Chess ?
Post by rmsgrey on Oct 14th, 2010, 9:25am
The grunting/moaning in female tennis has been the subject of debate from time to time. On the one hand, it's potentially distracting for the player's opponent; on the other, it helps the player herself perform better.

Having a ringing phone improve one's chess-playing ability would almost certainly involve some form of cheating, so...
Title: Re: Ringtone during Chess ?
Post by towr on Oct 14th, 2010, 9:51am

on 10/14/10 at 09:25:19, rmsgrey wrote:
on the other, it helps the player herself perform better.
Does it really, though? I mean, I'll believe they believe it does, and perhaps because of that they would play worse without grunting. But if they didn't believe it improved their game, I suspect they would play just as well if not better without wasting that extra energy in making noise.
Title: Re: Ringtone during Chess ?
Post by Grimbal on Oct 15th, 2010, 7:20am
Logically, any restriction can affect the player's performance only negatively (or make no difference).  This should be the case whether the restriction is to ban groaning or to make it mandatory.

But then, it is possible their coach is advising them to stop that bad habit, but they rebel against it.
Title: Re: Ringtone during Chess ?
Post by Three Hands on Oct 15th, 2010, 7:55am

on 10/14/10 at 09:51:59, towr wrote:
Does it really, though? I mean, I'll believe they believe it does, and perhaps because of that they would play worse without grunting. But if they didn't believe it improved their game, I suspect they would play just as well if not better without wasting that extra energy in making noise.


Following the principle of in martial arts where, by shouting/grunting/generally making a loud inarticulate sound is trained as a way of helping focus all the energy into a single attack, there may be a lot to be said for assisting the focus on a powerful stroke in tennis.

I think the idea is that, as you exhale sharply, it helps relax the shoulders while engaging the core, so gets the muscles to work as required. Creating a sound is technically superfluous, but is a simple way of focusing the breathing.
Title: Re: Ringtone during Chess ?
Post by JohanC on Oct 15th, 2010, 12:53pm

on 10/14/10 at 09:51:59, towr wrote:
Does it really, though? I mean, I'll believe they believe it does, and perhaps because of that they would play worse without grunting. But if they didn't believe it improved their game, I suspect they would play just as well if not better without wasting that extra energy in making noise.

Coincidently, this is a topic of a very recent (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0013148) study (http://www.plosone.org/article/fetchObjectAttachment.action?uri=info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0013148&representation=PDF) at the university of British Columbia. Their conclusion seems to be that grunting strongly distracts the opponent.
Title: Re: Ringtone during Chess ?
Post by towr on Oct 15th, 2010, 3:41pm

on 10/15/10 at 12:53:52, JohanC wrote:
Coincidently, this is a topic of a very recent (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0013148) study (http://www.plosone.org/article/fetchObjectAttachment.action?uri=info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0013148&representation=PDF) at the university of British Columbia. Their conclusion seems to be that grunting strongly distracts the opponent.
Not very sports(wo)manship-like, then.


on 10/15/10 at 07:55:34, Three Hands wrote:
Following the principle of in martial arts where, by shouting/grunting/generally making a loud inarticulate sound is trained as a way of helping focus all the energy into a single attack, there may be a lot to be said for assisting the focus on a powerful stroke in tennis.

I think the idea is that, as you exhale sharply, it helps relax the shoulders while engaging the core, so gets the muscles to work as required. Creating a sound is technically superfluous, but is a simple way of focusing the breathing.
That sounds vaguely plausible, but then, there's also a lot of pseudoscience that sounds vaguely plausible. The questions is whether anyone actually bothered (or cared) to find out if it's true, and thus separated the science from the pseudo. On the other hand, that would be probably a difficult subject to research (because to compare, you had to properly retrain a group of people to not shout. Otherwise you'd compare a group doing what they're trained to do with a group being told not to do what they're trained to do.)

This essay (http://www.wolfson.ox.ac.uk/clubs/taido/files/breathing.pdf) suggests different schools of martial arts think differently about the issue. So that's something. (Although I've only had a chance to glance at it so far.)
Title: Re: Ringtone during Chess ?
Post by Three Hands on Oct 16th, 2010, 5:43am
Towr, after taking a read through the article, although there are some who seem to disagree with the idea of a sharp exhalation during a strike, the main area of contention seems to be more whether the exhalation should also generate a sound or not.

Personally, I'm more inclined to the view that accompanying a strike with a shout or grunt is unnecessary for a strong technique, but that's based more on my own experience (I've been trained in two different schools of karate so far, one which does promote the use of a kiai, or shout, and one that does not) than any scientific study or survey of peers. I do find that strikes tend to feel stronger when accompanied by an exhalation, though, so from experience I appreciate the benefits of using correct breathing. Incidentally, one of the main reasons for the kiai is to intimidate an opponent, and so put them off - possibly similar to the benefit of grunting in tennis.

Presumably, some comparison could be made between those that shout and those that do not shout, as per their training, in terms of if there is any variation in effectiveness of their techniques. Maybe not as clear-cut as the re-training approach, but a bit more manageable.
Title: Re: Ringtone during Chess ?
Post by rmsgrey on Oct 16th, 2010, 8:06am
A thought occurs:

Leaving aside the question of whether always stroking on an exhalation produces better results than always stroking on an inhalation, or always with lungs full or always with lungs empty, being consistently at the same point in the breathing cycle at the moment you make your stroke will eliminate one variable. A more consistent tennis stroke will tend to improve play.
Title: Re: Ringtone during Chess ?
Post by JiNbOtAk on Oct 19th, 2010, 8:06pm
I find the fact that tennis games are conducted in silence to improve the concentration a bit funny; maybe because I'm comparing it to badminton, which is more common here. Badminton games are usually jam-packed shouts and cheering during game, in fact you can even see the faces of the players straining to concentrate despite the cheering and heckling.

Thus, I think the grunting/moaning thing won't have any psychological effect on the opponent, not at the international level anyway.
Title: Re: Ringtone during Chess ?
Post by Noke Lieu on Oct 21st, 2010, 7:52pm

on 10/16/10 at 05:43:30, Three Hands wrote:
Presumably, some comparison could be made between those that shout and those that do not shout, as per their training, in terms of if there is any variation in effectiveness of their techniques. Maybe not as clear-cut as the re-training approach, but a bit more manageable.


To me, it's all about tensing the stomach, locking your core. This allows more efficient transfer of power to the legs. Then again, I'm a judoka, and we look for different things.
Big sharp kiai for big techniques, and the other 'dadadada' type which gives a twitch that's more unpredicatble, therefore harder to defend against.
Title: Re: Ringtone during Chess ?
Post by Grimbal on Oct 25th, 2010, 8:19am
Just wondering:  do golf players grunt?  And discus or javelin throwers?  Where there are no opponents.
Title: Re: Ringtone during Chess ?
Post by JiNbOtAk on Oct 26th, 2010, 6:14am
Err..don't think so with golf. Definitely not when putting.  ::)

A friend who's a discus thrower tend to grunt when throwing, sometimes even shouting. I guess it's the same with javelin and hammer throwers..


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