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(Message started by: JiNbOtAk on Jul 21st, 2009, 4:54am)
Title: Sexual Harassment
Post by JiNbOtAk on Jul 21st, 2009, 4:54am
My department  is holding a public speaking contest for the employees, as part of the training plan to boost our language skills. We have 20 topics to choose from, and I chose Sexual Harassment : Who Are Responsible ?

Now, I know I'm supposed to do my own research and read up all the related stuff, but hey, I've got you guys to help me out.  ;D  Plus, I think it's a good topic for discussion here. Any takers ?

p/s : To the English gurus here, shouldn't the title be Sexual Harassment : Who Is Responsible ? Is there a difference ?
Title: Re: Sexual Harassment
Post by towr on Jul 21st, 2009, 5:42am

on 07/21/09 at 04:54:14, JiNbOtAk wrote:
p/s : To the English gurus here, shouldn't the title be Sexual Harassment : Who Is Responsible ? Is there a difference ?
I think it's both allowed, since "who" can be a group as well as an individual. You can also have "the team is successful" and "the team are successful", for the same reason.
"Who are" is probably better in this context, because it suggests that perhaps not merely the perpetrator or victim might be to blame, but that other people in the group might also play a role, e.g. as enabler for such behaviour. The social context is important.
Title: Re: Sexual Harassment
Post by Azgard on Jul 21st, 2009, 8:02am

on 07/21/09 at 05:42:32, towr wrote:
I think it's both allowed, since "who" can be a group as well as an individual. You can also have "the team is successful" and "the team are successful", for the same reason.
"Who are" is probably better in this context, because it suggests that perhaps not merely the perpetrator or victim might be to blame, but that other people in the group might also play a role, e.g. as enabler for such behaviour. The social context is important.


I would have to disagree. When you say "the team", it indicates one single team. No matter how many individuals the team is composed of, it is still "the" team, one team. You would have to say "the team is successful".

As for "Who Are Responsible?" I would still go with "is". The who could be a group of individuals, but you are still referring to a group.

I think you could say "Who Is Responsible?" or "Who Are Those Responsible?" but not "Who Are Responsible?"
Title: Re: Sexual Harassment
Post by towr on Jul 21st, 2009, 8:38am

on 07/21/09 at 08:02:34, Azgard wrote:
I would have to disagree. When you say "the team", it indicates one single team. No matter how many individuals the team is composed of, it is still "the" team, one team. You would have to say "the team is successful".
Well, I in turn disagree with that. So there :P
So you would also be opposed to "The team played very well; they scored 100 points"? Because "they" can't refer to the singular "team"?

anyway, it seems to come down to regional differences:
http://www.google.nl/search?q="team+is+playing"+site:us     893 hits
http://www.google.nl/search?q="team+are+playing"+site:us     15200 hits
http://www.google.nl/search?q="team+is+playing"+site:uk     5400 hits
http://www.google.nl/search?q="team+are+playing"+site:uk     2970 hits
http://www.google.nl/search?q="team+is+playing"+site:ca     2260 hits
http://www.google.nl/search?q="team+are+playing"+site:ca     152 hits

So it seems the US has a preference for "are", the UK a slight one for "is" and Canada a large preference for "is".


Quote:
As for "Who Are Responsible?" I would still go with "is". The who could be a group of individuals, but you are still referring to a group.
You might be referring to John Mary and Andrew, whether they are a group isn't a certainty at all.

And looking to google for guidance once again,
http://www.google.nl/search?q="who+are+responsible"    6.270.000 hits
http://www.google.nl/search?q="who+is+responsible"    13.200.000 hits
So as far as the internet is concerned, it seems to be allowed.

But we're getting quickly off topic. ;D
Title: Re: Sexual Harassment
Post by Azgard on Jul 21st, 2009, 9:02am

on 07/21/09 at 08:38:29, towr wrote:
Well, I in turn disagree with that. So there :P
So you would also be opposed to "The team played very well; they scored 100 points"? Because "they" can't refer to the singular "team"?


This is different. The team is one team, but the they is referring to all the individual members of the team who did the scoring. I think. It all gets a little confusing because there is what sounds right because we hear it all the time, and then there is what is right by the rules of English, and the two don't necessarily agree all of the time...

Which is why going by what is popular or most common will not always yield the correct conclusion.

What I know is that if the article being referred to is singular (the team, one team) then it should be followed by a verb conjugated for a singular noun. If the article being referred to is plural (the individuals in the team) then it should be followed by a verb conjugated for a plural noun.



Quote:
You might be referring to John Mary and Andrew, whether they are a group isn't a certainty at all.


John, Mary, and Andrew may not consider themselves to be a group, may not even know each other, but they are three people being referred to together, they are being referred to as a group of people.

Could you give me an example of when you would refer to John, Mary and Andrew for the same thing but not as a group of some sort?
Title: Re: Sexual Harassment
Post by BenVitale on Jul 21st, 2009, 9:49am

on 07/21/09 at 04:54:14, JiNbOtAk wrote:
My department  is holding a public speaking contest for the employees, as part of the training plan to boost our language skills.


I've some experience with public speaking.



Quote:
 ;D  Plus, I think it's a good topic for discussion here. Any takers ?


It's a good topic to think and talk about.


Let's start with:

- Define the term sexual harassment  
- Identify examples of sexual harassment
- Consider appropriate responses to sexual harassment

How do you make others understand that sexual harassment is any unwanted physical or verbal advances that have sexual overtones?

How common is sexual harassment in the schools? in the workplace?

kind of behavior that is usually considered a form of sexual harassment:

- Sexual jokes
- Touching in an inappropriate way
- Inappropriate gestures
- Spreading rumors about another person’s sexual behavior

Do you think there is a relationship between self-esteem and sexual harassment? Do you think people with low self-esteem would be more likely to be the harasser, the victim, or both? Give facts to support your ideas
Title: Re: Sexual Harassment
Post by towr on Jul 21st, 2009, 9:52am

on 07/21/09 at 09:02:51, Azgard wrote:
This is different.
It isn't different at all. Following the grammar books "they" is only correct if it refers back to a plural.


Quote:
It all gets a little confusing because there is what sounds right because we hear it all the time, and then there is what is right by the rules of English, and the two don't necessarily agree all of the time...
Euhm, there aren't any written-in-stone rules. The people define the language, it does not exist independent from them. Language is an emergent system; fluid and defined by conventional use. No matter how much a small subspecies of linguists might wish otherwise. Whatever people generally do must be correct. And while this may be different for written and spoken language, it's still not set in stone in either case. Just consider that language now isn't the same as it was hundreds of years ago. The English don't speak and write as Chaucer once did.
What, objectively, would the unchanging, eternal and possibly divine rules of English be, anyway?


Quote:
Could you give me an example of when you would refer to John, Mary and Andrew for the same thing but not as a group of some sort?
"Who are these hypothetical people?"
"John, Mary and Andrew."


"Who" is modified by expectation of number. And somewhat the same thing goes for team and similar words.
Title: Re: Sexual Harassment
Post by towr on Jul 21st, 2009, 10:11am
Here, from AskOxford's Ask the Experts (http://www.askoxford.com/asktheexperts/faq/aboutgrammar/pluralverbs?view=uk)

Quote:
Should I use a singular or a plural verb with collective nouns such as 'government', 'committee', and 'family'?

Such nouns are used to refer both to a whole group as a singular entity, and to the members of the group. The context may therefore require flexibility: you might write:
     The committee has now come to a decision.
but you could hardly use a singular verb in
     The committee have now taken their seats.
(A pedant might insist on writing 'The members of the committee have now taken their seats.')

In some contexts it is natural and idiomatic to use a plural verb with a noun which is singular in form:
     I have invited my family to tea and they are coming on Friday
     Leeds United are winning: they have just scored.
Title: Re: Sexual Harassment
Post by Noke Lieu on Jul 21st, 2009, 3:52pm
eric.ed.gov (http://www.eric.ed.gov/)

 not the best, but far from the worst.

The first thing that you need to know is you topic.
The second thing that you need to think about is your audience... includes age, education, cultural background...
Title: Re: Sexual Harassment
Post by ThudanBlunder on Jul 21st, 2009, 8:19pm

on 07/21/09 at 04:54:14, JiNbOtAk wrote:
My department  is holding a public speaking contest for the employees, as part of the training plan to boost our language skills. We have 20 topics to choose from, and I chose Sexual Harassment : Who Are Responsible ?

Is there much sexual harassment in Malaysia, a country whose official religion is Islam and where homosexuality is illegal? Unless you are referring to the decadent West or the local infidels, perhaps a better title might be:

SEXUAL HARASSMENT: WHERE IS IT AND HOW CAN I GET SOME?   ;D
Title: Re: Sexual Harassment
Post by JiNbOtAk on Jul 21st, 2009, 10:45pm

on 07/21/09 at 08:38:29, towr wrote:
But we're getting quickly off topic. ;D


I had that notion when I added the post script.  :P

And thanks Noke, for the link. I'll make sure to look it up.

In answer to T&B, homosexuality is not the only thing illegal here, but I guess you already know that. But when we're talking bout sexual harassment, how do you define it ? What would you consider to be sexual harassment, if it was done to you ?
Title: Re: Sexual Harassment
Post by Noke Lieu on Jul 21st, 2009, 11:38pm
that one is kinda tricky.
There are guide lines for that sort of thing.
Essentially sexual harrasment can be:

Unwanted advances of a sexual nature
Repeated discrimination (like bullying) based on sexual characteristics.
Making people feel uncomfortable about things associated with their gender, sex, sexual orientation, sexual preferences and practices. Or lack thereof.


Basically, behaviour that would get you in trouble with your mum, but your stereotypical same-sex friends would think was funny.

What would it take for me to feel sexually harrassed? Being male, it's easier to feel discriminated against, rather than harrassed. Why?
The whole unwanted advances thing. And I'm not exactly shy about setting soeone straight- "No. No. No. Good God no. Not even if you were the only other living thing, and all the servers in all the world were down."

oh, eric will give you a buunch of different papers on the matter. as would pubmed. Just that eric has more digests and conference proceedings on it- use the full text toggle in your search.
Title: Re: Sexual Harassment
Post by ThudanBlunder on Jul 23rd, 2009, 6:05am

on 07/21/09 at 22:45:45, JiNbOtAk wrote:
In answer to T&B, homosexuality is not the only thing illegal here, but I guess you already know that.... what would you consider to be sexual harassment, if it was done to you ?

But you have chosen to talk about sexual harassment, and not other types. So that law would tend to put a damper on certain types of harassers.

I remember, as a libidinous twentysomething who hadn't scored with a chick for a few months, feeling really annoyed when some promiscuous, militantly moustachioed macho gay would come sidling up to me in a (straight) bar, with a chat-up line like, "You waiting for somebody?"
Title: Re: Sexual Harassment
Post by towr on Jul 23rd, 2009, 6:24am

on 07/23/09 at 06:05:24, ThudanBlunder wrote:
I remember, as a libidinous twentysomething who hadn't scored with a chick for a few months, feeling really annoyed when some promiscuous, militantly moustachioed macho gay would come sidling up to me in a (straight) bar, with a chat-up line like, "You waiting for somebody?"
So, is trying to chat someone up in a bar a sexual harassment?
Would it have been any less annoying if you had been a stunning young woman and he had been straight? I don't really see the difference it makes.
Title: Re: Sexual Harassment
Post by ThudanBlunder on Jul 23rd, 2009, 8:05pm

on 07/23/09 at 06:24:06, towr wrote:
So, is trying to chat someone up in a bar a sexual harassment?
Would it have been any less annoying if you had been a stunning young woman and he had been straight? I don't really see the difference it makes.

As I am not one, I can't speak for stunning young women receiving unwanted attention from men.
And, sad to say, I have hardly ever been chatted-up by women, stunning or otherwise.  
Thus, I have confined my comments to my own experiences.
Title: Re: Sexual Harassment
Post by Noke Lieu on Jul 23rd, 2009, 9:32pm
I have.
And mostly, they're very clumsy at it.
Perhaps I only notice the clumsiness when I was not interested, or tried to make them earn it.

It woudl also appear that girls often are so shamed by actually trying that they don't get around to the harrassment stage.

On the other had, there have been a few gentlemen callers expressing their interest. A swift 'set them straight' has usually done the trick, though I confess that on occassion, I have taken advantage of the situation. Hell, if some fella wants to buy me a drink, then sure. There's no reciprocal part to that contract. Perfect.

The closest I've ever felt to harrassed would be by groups of school girls. They know no shame. But whilst that's vaguely flattering, it's mostly awkward.
Title: Re: Sexual Harassment
Post by towr on Jul 24th, 2009, 12:44am

on 07/23/09 at 20:05:50, ThudanBlunder wrote:
As I am not one, I can't speak for stunning young women receiving unwanted attention from men.
And, sad to say, I have hardly ever been chatted-up by women, stunning or otherwise.  
Thus, I have confined my comments to my own experiences.
Way to avoid the question.

Now, is trying to chat someone up in a bar sexual harassment or not? Or is it only sexual harassment when a gay man does it to you, but not when you do it to women? How does someone avoid being an harasser?

When you stated in your second to last post that outlawing homosexuality would put a damper on some types of sexual harassment (such as gay men hitting on you), was that something you'd be in favour of? Or was it more a statement along the line of "if everybody would just die, there would finally be world peace"; just a matter of fact?
Title: Re: Sexual Harassment
Post by ThudanBlunder on Jul 24th, 2009, 1:45am

on 07/24/09 at 00:44:29, towr wrote:
Way to avoid the question.

Perhaps I just don't have as much spare time on my hands as you.


Quote:
Now, is trying to chat someone up in a bar sexual harassment or not? Or is it only sexual harassment when a gay man does it to you, but not when you do it to women?

That would depend on the two people involved. If one person feels harassed then it is harassment, by definition. I felt annoyed when I couldn't sit quietly in a bar without having to reject the unwanted advances of 'promiscuous, militantly moustachioed macho gays' who were obviously out for a one-night stand. This was partly because I was a young, libidinous, straight male who hadn't scored with a chick in a while and partly because I had given them no encouragement to act so. I try to tell an amusing anecdote and all you can do is analyse it with a Karnaugh map!


Quote:
How does someone avoid being an harasser?

Use body language, eye contact.  


Quote:
When you stated in your second to last post that outlawing homosexuality would put a damper on some types of sexual harassment (such as gay men hitting on you), was that something you'd be in favour of?

I have no opinion on the matter. And stop trying to put words in my mouth. Have you nothing better to do?


Quote:
Or was it more a statement along the line of "if everybody would just die, there would finally be world peace"; just a matter of fact?

No, it is a matter of conjecture.
Title: Re: Sexual Harassment
Post by towr on Jul 24th, 2009, 2:29am

on 07/24/09 at 01:45:02, ThudanBlunder wrote:
I try to tell an amusing anecdote and all you can do is analyse it with a Karnaugh map!
Wow, really? And without even knowing what a Karnaugh map is, I must be a genius!


Quote:
And stop trying to put words in my mouth.
Hah, you should have seen the previous version. ::)
I hardly think I'm at fault for asking some clarification of whether you intended the (apparently inadvertent)  suggestion that went out from that post. And perhaps you're rightfully annoyed that I should even consider it a possibility (or perhaps it just seems like you're annoyed), but I think asking is better than that I continue to consider it a possibility.
So, well, thanks. And apologies.
Title: Re: Sexual Harassment
Post by ThudanBlunder on Jul 26th, 2009, 12:25am

on 07/24/09 at 02:29:03, towr wrote:
Wow, really? And without even knowing what a Karnaugh map is, I must be a genius!

With or without such a map, by the usual definition(s), I have no doubt that you are.  


Quote:
I hardly think I'm at fault for asking some clarification of whether you intended the (apparently inadvertent)  suggestion that went out from that post. And perhaps you're rightfully annoyed that I should even consider it a possibility (or perhaps it just seems like you're annoyed), but I think asking is better than that I continue to consider it a possibility.
So, well, thanks. And apologies.

And my apologies to you for being rather sharp.
But, after accusing me of avoiding the question, you then seemed to fire a fusillade of further questions at me like a Spanish Inquisitor interrogating a heretic before burning him. Anyway, I wouldn't like to be the one to shout, "Throw another faggot on the fire!" in your hearing. LOL

Title: Re: Sexual Harassment
Post by JiNbOtAk on Jul 27th, 2009, 7:04am

on 07/23/09 at 06:05:24, ThudanBlunder wrote:
I remember, as a libidinous twentysomething who hadn't scored with a chick for a few months...
Remind us again T&B, how long ago was that ?  :P



on 07/23/09 at 21:32:38, Noke Lieu wrote:
I have.
And mostly, they're very clumsy at it.
Perhaps I only notice the clumsiness when I was not interested, or tried to make them earn it.
It's so refreshing to read such a modest admission.  ::)



on 07/23/09 at 21:32:38, Noke Lieu wrote:
The closest I've ever felt to harrassed would be by groups of school girls. They know no shame. But whilst that's vaguely flattering, it's mostly awkward.

So that's it ? It's harassing when it gets awkward ?
Title: Re: Sexual Harassment
Post by ThudanBlunder on Jul 27th, 2009, 6:12pm

on 07/27/09 at 07:04:30, JiNbOtAk wrote:
Remind us again T&B, how long ago was that ?  :P

I can't do something for a third time if I haven't already done it twice.  :P

It was in those halcyon days of yore, when young ladies saw no reason to take any new-fangled pills for nothing and their mothers insisted, "If you can't be good, be careful".  ;)
Title: Re: Sexual Harassment
Post by Noke Lieu on Jul 28th, 2009, 1:49am
What can I say? I'm proably the most modest guy you'll meet. ;D


..when it gets awkward, and then the other party doesn't stop. And contiues to keep you in that awkward state. That's harrassment.
I suppose.
Title: Re: Sexual Harassment
Post by wade32 on Apr 6th, 2012, 7:54pm
I would take some accounts of sexual harrassement in the paper or on the net and integrate it into my speech.  People can relate to real events.
Title: Re: Sexual Harassment
Post by RichardL on Jul 30th, 2012, 3:59am
Sexual Harassment ! : Who Is Responsible ? - Perfect Title


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