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        riddles >> general problem-solving / chatting / whatever >> Taking the math out of programming
        
(Message started by: amichail on Nov 18th, 2008, 11:38am)
Title: Taking the math out of programming
Post by amichail on Nov 18th, 2008, 11:38am
I think that taking the math out of programming would be a good way to combat computer illiteracy.

In particular, I think chatbots hold enormous promise in allowing programming for the masses.

Even if a chatbot language is not Turing complete, people could still get a feeling for what it's like to program a computer.

Of course spreadsheets have been doing this for a long time, but chatbots are way more fun.

And unlike Logo's Turtle Graphics, chatbot programming is not math-oriented and will appeal to a larger number of people.
Title: Re: Taking the math out of programming
Post by towr on Nov 18th, 2008, 11:58am
Why not start with combating math illiteracy? That in itself has merit enough.
Title: Re: Taking the math out of programming
Post by amichail on Nov 18th, 2008, 12:23pm

on 11/18/08 at 11:58:52, towr wrote:
Why not start with combating math illiteracy? That in itself has merit enough.

You can combat both.  The point is that you will probably be more successful in combating computer illiteracy if you avoid math.
Title: Re: Taking the math out of programming
Post by towr on Nov 18th, 2008, 12:55pm
Hmm..
What do you exactly mean with computer literacy anyway? It seems like you're equating it to programming, yet at the same time you want to take out algorithmic thinking, since that's math. So what's left?
Title: Re: Taking the math out of programming
Post by amichail on Nov 18th, 2008, 1:51pm
As an example, chatbot programming.  It may not be Turing complete, but it still gives people a sense of what programming a computer is like.
Title: Re: Taking the math out of programming
Post by towr on Nov 18th, 2008, 2:11pm
If it's just specifying trigger-response pairs; then I'd have to disagree.
Title: Re: Taking the math out of programming
Post by amichail on Nov 18th, 2008, 2:15pm

on 11/18/08 at 14:11:15, towr wrote:
If it's just specifying trigger-response pairs; then I'd have to disagree.

To you programming must mean Turing complete?  You can't convey the sense of programming a computer in any other way?
Title: Re: Taking the math out of programming
Post by towr on Nov 18th, 2008, 2:25pm

on 11/18/08 at 14:15:51, amichail wrote:
To you programming must mean Turing complete?
Not necessarily; but it shouldn't be a one-trick pony either.


Quote:
You can't convey the sense of programming a computer in any other way?
The lego mindstorms approach would be a better start. Plugging 'blocks' of instructions together to actually achieve goals.
Title: Re: Taking the math out of programming
Post by amichail on Nov 18th, 2008, 2:28pm

on 11/18/08 at 14:25:02, towr wrote:
Not necessarily; but it shouldn't be a one-trick pony either.

The lego mindstorms approach would be a better start. Plugging 'blocks' of instructions together to actually achieve goals.

Chatbot programming is interesting because your program communicates with real people.  And so the possibilities for creativity are endless.
Title: Re: Taking the math out of programming
Post by towr on Nov 18th, 2008, 2:56pm

on 11/18/08 at 14:28:36, amichail wrote:
Chatbot programming is interesting because your program communicates with real people.  And so the possibilities for creativity are endless.
If you can only make it respond on keywords/patterns, then it's neither interesting nor very creative.
It really doesn't follow that communication with real people leads to possibilities for creativity (in a programming sense; certainly you can make very creative responses. You might write very creative stories too, but it's not programming. And even then it doesn't depend on communication.)
Title: Re: Taking the math out of programming
Post by amichail on Nov 18th, 2008, 3:21pm

on 11/18/08 at 14:56:06, towr wrote:
If you can only make it respond on keywords/patterns, then it's neither interesting nor very creative.
It really doesn't follow that communication with real people leads to possibilities for creativity (in a programming sense; certainly you can make very creative responses. You might write very creative stories too, but it's not programming. And even then it doesn't depend on communication.)

It's all about automation though.  That's what programming is all about.
Title: Re: Taking the math out of programming
Post by Sir Col on Nov 19th, 2008, 12:01am
I suspect your proposal: "Taking the math out of programming" is rooted in a rather limited view about what "math" is. The removal of a logical, symbolic representation of ideas would leave a system which would be unable to receive coherent meaningful instructions and so regardless of input it would behave in a random, chaotic manner.

In fact, I think your system already exists and teenagers play it all the time: "The Sims".
Title: Re: Taking the math out of programming
Post by towr on Nov 19th, 2008, 12:28am

on 11/18/08 at 15:21:02, amichail wrote:
It's all about automation though.  That's what programming is all about.
So an (analog) thermostat is programming?
And really, what's automated in a chatbot? It's just verbal ping pong. Throw a phrase it's way, get a phrase back. Sure, you get it back automatically; but then, if you throw a ball against a wall you get it back automatically as well. Doesn't make it programming, imo.
Title: Re: Taking the math out of programming
Post by amichail on Nov 19th, 2008, 5:09am

on 11/19/08 at 00:28:07, towr wrote:
So an (analog) thermostat is programming?
And really, what's automated in a chatbot? It's just verbal ping pong. Throw a phrase it's way, get a phrase back. Sure, you get it back automatically; but then, if you throw a ball against a wall you get it back automatically as well. Doesn't make it programming, imo.

I agree with you that automation is not enough.  A search & replace is automation but is not interesting at all.

So how about a combination of automation and creativity?
Title: Re: Taking the math out of programming
Post by amichail on Nov 19th, 2008, 5:11am

on 11/19/08 at 00:01:02, Sir Col wrote:
I suspect your proposal: "Taking the math out of programming" is rooted in a rather limited view about what "math" is. The removal of a logical, symbolic representation of ideas would leave a system which would be unable to receive coherent meaningful instructions and so regardless of input it would behave in a random, chaotic manner.

In fact, I think your system already exists and teenagers play it all the time: "The Sims".


Have you seen my chatbot game?  If you understand Google queries, then you know enough to play it.
Title: Re: Taking the math out of programming
Post by towr on Nov 19th, 2008, 6:09am

on 11/19/08 at 05:09:34, amichail wrote:
I agree with you that automation is not enough.  A search & replace is automation but is not interesting at all.

So how about a combination of automation and creativity?
Depends on what the creativity is aimed at, to start with. Search and replace with creatively chosen replacements isn't really much more interesting than plain search and replace.
Title: Re: Taking the math out of programming
Post by amichail on Nov 19th, 2008, 7:28am

on 11/19/08 at 06:09:36, towr wrote:
Depends on what the creativity is aimed at, to start with. Search and replace with creatively chosen replacements isn't really much more interesting than plain search and replace.

How about defining programming as automation + addictive?
Title: Re: Taking the math out of programming
Post by towr on Nov 19th, 2008, 7:46am
What does addiction have to do with it?
Whether someone likes doing it or not has nothing to do with it. Programming comes down to writing instructions that a computer can follow so as to achieve certain goals. And a meager skill in programming should mean you can get it to do at least more than a few different things.


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