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        riddles >> general problem-solving / chatting / whatever >> Does lifecasting compete with religion?
        
(Message started by: amichail on Jul 6th, 2007, 5:33pm)
Title: Does lifecasting compete with religion?
Post by amichail on Jul 6th, 2007, 5:33pm
Does lifecasting compete with religion as a way to keep you well-behaved? Does it also encourage people you meet to treat you better than they normally would?

To see what lifecasting is about, check out

http://justin.tv
Title: Re: Does lifecasting compete with religion?
Post by towr on Jul 7th, 2007, 6:03am
I don't see it competing in any way, really.
And people might not take kindly to being filmed whenever you're in their presence. Nevermind that if you want to attract a good viewerships it probably pays to be somewhat of a jackass.
Title: Re: Does lifecasting compete with religion?
Post by amichail on Jul 7th, 2007, 1:03pm

on 07/07/07 at 06:03:21, towr wrote:
I don't see it competing in any way, really.
And people might not take kindly to being filmed whenever you're in their presence. Nevermind that if you want to attract a good viewerships it probably pays to be somewhat of a jackass.

It should discourage illegal acts.

Moreover, if you are really nice, it will increase the probability of finding a job, a husband/wife, etc.
Title: Re: Does lifecasting compete with religion?
Post by towr on Jul 8th, 2007, 8:17am

on 07/07/07 at 13:03:09, amichail wrote:
It should discourage illegal acts.
I'm not so sure..
And especially if everybody were to start doing it, then the chance someone is watching your feed when you do anything in particular is very small.


Quote:
Moreover, if you are really nice, it will increase the probability of finding a job, a husband/wife, etc.
Except, that they might not want to be included in a live feed 24/7.
I'd somehow doubt you'd even get a job-interview unless you turn the camera off.
Title: Re: Does lifecasting compete with religion?
Post by amichail on Jul 8th, 2007, 8:29am

on 07/08/07 at 08:17:53, towr wrote:
I'm not so sure..
And especially if everybody were to start doing it, then the chance someone is watching your feed when you do anything in particular is very small.
.

Some automation would help here, to automatically pick up on bad behavior.  Viewers could then be told that there is something potentially interesting going on in this feed.
Title: Re: Does lifecasting compete with religion?
Post by towr on Jul 8th, 2007, 10:04am

on 07/08/07 at 08:29:58, amichail wrote:
Some automation would help here, to automatically pick up on bad behavior.
How would you plan on accomplishing this feat of artificial intelligence?
Title: Re: Does lifecasting compete with religion?
Post by amichail on Jul 8th, 2007, 10:05am

on 07/08/07 at 10:04:00, towr wrote:
How would you plan on accomplishing this feat of artificial intelligence?
I thought there's already some research on this for surveillance cameras?


(Apologies, I accidentally hit modify instead of quote --towr)
Title: Re: Does lifecasting compete with religion?
Post by towr on Jul 8th, 2007, 11:17am

on 07/08/07 at 10:05:54, amichail wrote:
I thought there's already some research on this for surveillance cameras?
The only thing I know about is from anger recognition for sound. (Which is then used to aim the camera). In general though misbehaving won't be accompanied by angry shouting.
Title: Re: Does lifecasting compete with religion?
Post by amichail on Jul 8th, 2007, 12:54pm

on 07/08/07 at 11:17:08, towr wrote:
The only thing I know about is from anger recognition for sound. (Which is then used to aim the camera). In general though misbehaving won't be accompanied by angry shouting.

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/techinnovations/2007-02-26-surveillance-smarter_x.htm
Title: Re: Does lifecasting compete with religion?
Post by towr on Jul 8th, 2007, 1:11pm

on 07/08/07 at 12:54:18, amichail wrote:
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/techinnovations/2007-02-26-surveillance-smarter_x.htm
The only line mentioned there that might apply here is "analyze the way someone walks to determine if they are a threat."
Identification or noticing left-behind bags is hardly interesting here (we already know who we're dealing with in a live-cast; and most mischief doesn't involved leaving bags).
None of the tasks in that article come close to the difficulty of recognizing "bad behaviour"; and those tasks already aren't easy. Also consider the range of behaviour you want to classify; like distinguishing throwing eggs at a car or house from throwing a can in the thrash or playing catch with a ball.

And the article should make one wonder how they intend to distinguish littering from someone leaving a can filled with explosive behind. There stand to be an awful lot of false positives on people leaving stuff behind.
Title: Re: Does lifecasting compete with religion?
Post by amichail on Jul 8th, 2007, 2:08pm
If you upset someone, they could just take note of the time at which this happened and tell people to look up the incident on the life casting site.
Title: Re: Does lifecasting compete with religion?
Post by towr on Jul 8th, 2007, 2:15pm

on 07/08/07 at 14:08:10, amichail wrote:
If you upset someone, they could just take note of the time at which this happened and tell people to look up the incident on the life casting site.
True, and you could put all the most embarrassing moments from that someone's life-cast on the net in retaliation. All in all, I don't see an improvement with everyone under permanent public observation.
And if you can turn it off, well, then you can do whatever you want off the record.
Title: Re: Does lifecasting compete with religion?
Post by amichail on Jul 8th, 2007, 2:20pm

on 07/08/07 at 14:15:42, towr wrote:
True, and you could put all the most embarrassing moments from that someone's life-cast on the net in retaliation. All in all, I don't see an improvement with everyone under permanent public observation.
And if you can turn it off, well, then you can do whatever you want off the record.

Even if you do turn off your device, the person you are talking to may not be willing to turn his device off.

Also, turning off your device in public would be considered suspicious and would instantly bring attention to you.  

Finally, turning off your device temporarily would be sort of like turning off your religion temporarily.  
Title: Re: Does lifecasting compete with religion?
Post by towr on Jul 8th, 2007, 3:04pm

on 07/08/07 at 14:20:45, amichail wrote:
Even if you do turn off your device, the person you are talking to may not be willing to turn his device off.
Not all misbehaviour is in the presence of someone else.


Quote:
Also, turning off your device in public would be considered suspicious and would instantly bring attention to you.  
Ah yes, the old guilty until proven innocent. "If you have done nothing wrong, you don't have anything to hide".
And you can just turn it off while you're in private, and then go out. How would anyone know?


Quote:
Finally, turning off your device temporarily would be sort of like turning off your religion temporarily.
?!?
Oh well, plenty of atheists.. But really, I doubt anyone would feel so strongly about this.
Title: Re: Does lifecasting compete with religion?
Post by Grimbal on Jul 8th, 2007, 3:21pm
Religion just one source for moral values.

It works not by maintaining a permanent threat (i.e. you don't want to be caught), but by so to say hard-coding rules in your behavior.  You first feel uncomfortable with the idea of some behaviors, and in the end, the bad behaviors just don't come to your mind.  If you enter a shop, you usually don't even consider leaving without paying, even if the shop owner appears to be absent.

I think your lifecasting device would possibly help to reinforce moral values if you have some, but won't create any.
Title: Re: Does lifecasting compete with religion?
Post by amichail on Jul 9th, 2007, 11:29am

on 07/08/07 at 15:21:47, Grimbal wrote:
It works not by maintaining a permanent threat (i.e. you don't want to be caught), but by so to say hard-coding rules in your behavior.

I disagree.  The most influential religions over the long term are exactly those with the most devastating threats.
Title: Re: Does lifecasting compete with religion?
Post by Sameer on Jul 9th, 2007, 11:52am

on 07/09/07 at 11:29:55, amichail wrote:
The most influential religions over the long term are exactly those with the most devastating threats.

Influential and most troublesome!!!


Talking about lifecasting, I just saw local news yesterday where they were showing a guy stealing things from ladies while they were walking without even them noticing. And that place had cameras that caught him in action in all possibilities he knew about them, yet he went ahead and did it anyways!!

Moral code is a choice. You decide to do somethings and you decide not to. Question is how much is this being influenced by various factors. I agree religion is probably be the winner here. Next would be your surroundings, your friends, your parents, etc.

Just as an example, I have been approached by many Chrisitian church people asking me "Do I believe in hell? If I don't accept Jesus, I will die and go to hell .. blah blah" ... I of course politely ask them to leave. My moral code says this is immoral. Asking me to embrace some ideas based on fear is wrong. Telling me what I believe or my faith or whatever it is I believe in is wrong is immoral. Trying to force your religious beliefs on others is immoral. Yet my moral code tells me to be tolerant. However those guys' moral code states that what they do is right. They firmly believe in their religion and existence of 'GOD' and will follow on that moral conduct.

Question is how do we define what is right and what is wrong? Then we can go ahead and say if that is going to make any difference whether you lifecast someone or religiously profile them.
Title: Re: Does lifecasting compete with religion?
Post by amichail on Jul 9th, 2007, 12:05pm

on 07/08/07 at 15:21:47, Grimbal wrote:
I think your lifecasting device would possibly help to reinforce moral values if you have some, but won't create any.

The moral values being reinforced would come from the viewers of your lifecast.  If you do something that subsequently results in their disapproval, you will know about it.
Title: Re: Does lifecasting compete with religion?
Post by towr on Jul 9th, 2007, 1:09pm

on 07/09/07 at 11:29:55, amichail wrote:
I disagree.  The most influential religions over the long term are exactly those with the most devastating threats.
Perhaps, but does that mean they are influential because of those threats?
It simply comes down to indoctrination imo. Threats just help to do that.
Title: Re: Does lifecasting compete with religion?
Post by amichail on Jul 9th, 2007, 1:45pm

on 07/09/07 at 13:09:50, towr wrote:
Perhaps, but does that mean they are influential because of those threats?
It simply comes down to indoctrination imo. Threats just help to do that.

If you take the threats away one day -- no matter how much indoctrination was done -- people will behave differently.

So yes, I do believe that maintaining a constant threat system is essential for good behavior.  That's what constant surveillance would do.
Title: Re: Does lifecasting compete with religion?
Post by Sameer on Jul 9th, 2007, 4:41pm

on 07/09/07 at 13:45:38, amichail wrote:
So yes, I do believe that maintaining a constant threat system is essential for good behavior.  That's what constant surveillance would do.


But you didn't tell me what "good behavior" is....
Title: Re: Does lifecasting compete with religion?
Post by amichail on Jul 9th, 2007, 4:44pm

on 07/09/07 at 16:41:25, Sameer wrote:
But you didn't tell me what "good behavior" is....

It's what the viewers decide is good behavior.
Title: Re: Does lifecasting compete with religion?
Post by Sameer on Jul 9th, 2007, 4:53pm

on 07/09/07 at 16:44:20, amichail wrote:
It's what the viewers decide is good behavior.



Do you decide on majority? Let's say I like to idle in my couch whole day on weekends which let's say majority of people don't like... would they consider that bad behavior and ask me to be more active?
Title: Re: Does lifecasting compete with religion?
Post by amichail on Jul 9th, 2007, 4:56pm

on 07/09/07 at 16:53:39, Sameer wrote:
Do you decide on majority? Let's say I like to idle in my couch whole day on weekends which let's say majority of people don't like... would they consider that bad behavior and ask me to be more active?

Anyone who does not like your behavior will try to make a big deal out of it by showing it to as many like-minded people as possible.  If there are enough of those people, then you will encounter problems.  For example, it might be reported in a newspaper,  some people might start avoiding you, etc.
Title: Re: Does lifecasting compete with religion?
Post by towr on Jul 10th, 2007, 12:26am

on 07/09/07 at 13:45:38, amichail wrote:
If you take the threats away one day -- no matter how much indoctrination was done -- people will behave differently.
But will they behave badly? (hint: no)
Besides, you can't take non-verifiable threats away. That is one major advantage of religion over surveillance. You can know when there is no surveillance, but you can never be certain to escape the all seeing eye of the gods.


Quote:
So yes, I do believe that maintaining a constant threat system is essential for good behavior.
Well, I think you're wrong. And if the only thing keeping you from raping and pillaging your neighbours is some threat, then I'm very glad I'm not living anywhere near you.

You might want to consider http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/27/AR2007052701056.html?hpid=topnews
Evolution has a much more innate role to play in moral behaviour than anything we have come up with to justify it.


Quote:
That's what constant surveillance would do.
It's more likely to turn people into neurotic wrecks imo.
And it would not create the sort of people, nor the sort of environment I would want to be associated with.
Title: Re: Does lifecasting compete with religion?
Post by towr on Jul 10th, 2007, 12:32am

on 07/09/07 at 16:44:20, amichail wrote:
It's what the viewers decide is good behavior.
It would not take long for "good behaviour" to be "entertaining behaviour" in those circumstances.
And entertaining behaviour is often not all that bothered by morality and niceties.
Title: Re: Does lifecasting compete with religion?
Post by Grimbal on Jul 10th, 2007, 2:00am
Hehe... you are right.

Boxing?  2 people fight, thousands are watching, and nobody tells them their behavior is improper?

Hooligans who discover they are on TV?  Will they calm down?

Reality shows?


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