wu :: forums
        (http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~wwu/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi)
      

        riddles >> general problem-solving / chatting / whatever >> Can we see our face??????
        
(Message started by: checker on Feb 19th, 2007, 9:10pm)
Title: Can we see our face??????
Post by checker on Feb 19th, 2007, 9:10pm
Our here I am posting the question of einstien whose answer I am searching for:
If we are traveling with the speed of light with a mirror in our hand......and then a beam of light stricks our face........then...Can we be able to see our face?????
Title: Re: Can we see our face??????
Post by towr on Feb 20th, 2007, 12:37am
Yes and no. In our frame of reference we can, light always travels at, well, speed of light, in our own frame of reference (all things moving at the same speed in the same direction). However, to outside observers, our time seems to stand still, so they would rightfully say we can't see ourselves, or move, or do anything.
Title: Re: Can we see our face??????
Post by THUDandBLUNDER on Feb 20th, 2007, 1:25am

on 02/20/07 at 00:37:35, towr wrote:
However, to outside observers, our time seems to stand still, so they would rightfully say we can't see ourselves, or move, or do anything.

While we are on the subject, I think even Madonna might agree it is really neat that from the point of view of a photon length telescopes to nothing in the direction of travel, as does time relative to a stationary observer. So for a 3D pulse of light there is no physical universe or time. Or answers such as '42' because there are no annoying little questions such as 'Why are we here?'.  

;)
Title: Re: Can we see our face??????
Post by rmsgrey on Feb 21st, 2007, 8:34am
Of course, at times light itself moves slower than the speed of light, which will have all sorts of weird effects...

As to the original question, at high enough speeds, either the oncoming beam of light will be blue-shifted into high-energy gamma, which will mostly pass straight through you, or the reflected light will be red-shifted into very long-wave radio, which will pass by a hand-held mirror without noticing it, so you're unlikely to see much...
Title: Re: Can we see our face??????
Post by JiNbOtAk on Feb 21st, 2007, 4:49pm

on 02/21/07 at 08:34:41, rmsgrey wrote:
Of course, at times light itself moves slower than the speed of light, which will have all sorts of weird effects...



I thought the speed of light is constant, and it stays constant regardless of medium, time, space, etc. ? ???
Title: Re: Can we see our face??????
Post by THUDandBLUNDER on Feb 21st, 2007, 4:56pm

on 02/21/07 at 16:49:58, JiNbOtAk wrote:
I thought the speed of light is constant, and it stays constant regardless of medium, time, space, etc. ? ???

Nope, it is constant and equal to c in a vacuum. Through glass or water it is about 0.67c, IIRC.
Title: Re: Can we see our face??????
Post by JiNbOtAk on Feb 21st, 2007, 5:18pm

on 02/21/07 at 16:56:07, THUDandBLUNDER wrote:
Nope, it is constant and equal to c in a vacuum. Through glass or water it is about 0.67c, IIRC.


Ahh, yes. Sorry for the blunder.  :P

How about gravity ? Does gravity effect the speed of light, or just the path it travels ? Or is that just an illusion ?
Title: Re: Can we see our face??????
Post by Icarus on Feb 21st, 2007, 5:57pm
That depends on how you define things. According to Einstein's General Theory of Relativity, you can either consider spacetime to be flat (at least locally), in which case gravity is a force that acts on everything passing by, or you can consider spacetime to be curved by the presence of matter, in which case gravity is just an illusion caused by us expecting spacetime to be flat. I.e., light is just moving in a "straight line", but because the spacetime itself is curved, that straight line does not behave like we think it should. The discrepancy between the actual behavior of light (and other particles) and what we expect is what we think of as the force of gravity.
Title: Re: Can we see our face??????
Post by Grimbal on Feb 22nd, 2007, 5:41am

on 02/21/07 at 08:34:41, rmsgrey wrote:
Of course, at times light itself moves slower than the speed of light, which will have all sorts of weird effects...

Such as letting your eye focus on the reflection of your face. ;)
Title: Re: Can we see our face??????
Post by tiber13 on Mar 10th, 2007, 9:34pm
gravity should effect light, after all, black holes' gravity is so strong it can suck up light.
Title: Re: Can we see our face??????
Post by Icarus on Mar 10th, 2007, 10:04pm
Actually, according to Einstein, gravity doesn't affect light at all - nor does it affect matter. Instead it affects spacetime, bending it so that a "straight" path bends. A black hole bends spacetime so extremely that within its event horizon, straight lines are bent into closed circles that do not extend beyond that horizon.

Black holes do not suck up light. "Straight lines" starting outside the horizon bend in ways that mean they stay outside the horizon. Light is not directly influenced by the black hole. It simply follows a straight path. Because of the bending of spacetime, this path will always bend to go around the black hole. Light inside the black hole follows the paths inside that bend so as to never leave the black hole.

So light inside stays inside, light outside stays outside, but all because there is no straight path that crosses the event horizon.
Title: Re: Can we see our face??????
Post by towr on Mar 11th, 2007, 8:42am

on 03/10/07 at 22:04:54, Icarus wrote:
Actually, according to Einstein, gravity doesn't affect light at all - nor does it affect matter. Instead it affects spacetime, bending it so that a "straight" path bends.
I don't think Einstein actually distinguishes which of the two cases is true. It depends on whether you prefer to look at space as Euclidean or non-Euclidean. Which is actually the case can't be distinguished by experiment.
Title: Re: Can we see our face??????
Post by Icarus on Mar 11th, 2007, 11:28am
More correctly, Einstein posits that essentially both are true - that is, both view points are equally capable of describing reality. The only difference is how you interpret the equations - not what the equations are.
Title: Re: Can we see our face??????
Post by srn347 on Sep 8th, 2007, 8:31pm
When you move at the speed of light, your mass is real and imaginary, so is there anything to reflect? What if the same applies to the mirror? I'll try it after mastering telekinesis.
Title: Re: Can we see our face??????
Post by towr on Sep 9th, 2007, 7:52am

on 09/08/07 at 20:31:09, srn347 wrote:
When you move at the speed of light, your mass is real and imaginary
That is true in as much that you can't move at the speed of light, and therefor your mass, aside from being real and imaginary, is also pink and invisible, has a strangely gooey texture, and tastes like electric sheep.
Particles with (rest)mass can't move at light speed. (To accelerate to light speed would take infinite energy and increase the mass infinitely)
Title: Re: Can we see our face??????
Post by srn347 on Sep 9th, 2007, 10:07am
Does that mean I can or can't see my reflection?
Title: Re: Can we see our face??????
Post by towr on Sep 9th, 2007, 10:48am

on 09/09/07 at 10:07:41, srn347 wrote:
Does that mean I can or can't see my reflection?
Particles (objects) moving at the speed of light don't experience time; since it takes time for something to reflect, and to see, I'd say no.
Title: Re: Can we see our face??????
Post by Grimbal on Sep 9th, 2007, 10:53am
I would say no.  Because if you travel at the speed of light, your own clock slows down to the point of stopping, which means you would have no time to actually experience anything.  And anyway, the light wouldn't have the time to go to the mirror and back.
Assuming it were possible to move at the speed of light, you would only experience the time before you reach that speed and the time after you slow down a bit.  The time where you travel at the speed of light will pass in zero of your own time.
Title: Re: Can we see our face??????
Post by srn347 on Sep 9th, 2007, 11:41am
Also, objects slower than light never move at the speed of light or faster and objects faster than light never slow down to the speed of light or slower. So what if I was faster than light? Or what if I let go of the mirror?
Title: Re: Can we see our face??????
Post by ima1trkpny on Sep 9th, 2007, 8:03pm

on 09/09/07 at 11:41:05, srn347 wrote:
Also, objects slower than light never move at the speed of light or faster and objects faster than light never slow down to the speed of light or slower. So what if I was faster than light? Or what if I let go of the mirror?

It would be an interesting thing to play with if you could actually find a way to experiment... but the fun little thing about the speed of light is that matter doesn't want to travel that fast. Not sure if you have yet come across it, but as particles approach the speed of light, they gain mass so as to avoid going the speed of light.
Title: Re: Can we see our face??????
Post by ThudanBlunder on Sep 9th, 2007, 8:27pm

on 09/09/07 at 20:03:02, ima1trkpny wrote:
...they gain mass so as to avoid going the speed of light.

So if srn347's brain moves at the speed of light, as appears to be the case, can we conclude once and for all that it has zero mass?    

:-/
Title: Re: Can we see our face??????
Post by srn347 on Sep 9th, 2007, 8:30pm
If thudingblunder moves up the evolutionary chain at the speed of light, does his brain become an ameoba in 1000 years?
Title: Re: Can we see our face??????
Post by ima1trkpny on Sep 9th, 2007, 8:39pm

on 09/09/07 at 20:27:45, ThudanBlunder wrote:
So if srn347's brain moves at the speed of light, does this mean it has no mass?


::) Was trying to decide whether to answer that seriously or not for a few minutes... but so as not to confuse him I will speak the truth... ("I cannot tell a lie!")  :P His brain would become infinitely massive... somehow I have a feeling he doesn't have this problem yet...

on 09/09/07 at 20:30:12, srn347 wrote:
If thudingblunder moves up the evolutionary chain at the speed of light, does his brain become an ameoba in 1000 years?

And that would be regression darling... the opposite of evolving... but who knows... ameoba's have a strange elegance in their simplicity, it is feasable they may one day take over the world  :P
Title: Re: Can we see our face??????
Post by ThudanBlunder on Sep 9th, 2007, 8:43pm

on 09/09/07 at 20:39:21, ima1trkpny wrote:
His brain would become infinitely massive..

Hence, by reductio ad copmpletely absurdum, its rest mass is precisely zero, as expected.
Title: Re: Can we see our face??????
Post by srn347 on Sep 9th, 2007, 8:48pm
Ameoba's take over the world?! Humans are at the top of the chain and we have telekinesis(which hasn't been unlocked yet). http://www.wingmakers.co.nz/Teleportation.html
Title: Re: Can we see our face??????
Post by ima1trkpny on Sep 9th, 2007, 9:05pm

on 09/09/07 at 20:43:04, ThudanBlunder wrote:
Or, by reductio ad absurdum, its rest mass is precisely zero.

Fair enough  :P

srn347, the ameoba's comment was my twisted sense of humor and irony manifesting itself... but more complicated doesn't necessarily mean better... yes, we are the top of the food chain now (and to be honest I rather like it that way) but life, and all things for that matter, tend to fluctuate with time. We advance for awhile and then we simplify... think of it like a pendulum, we swing one way for awhile until the momentum changes and then we flow in the opposite direction. But anyway, I ask you a question, is complicated always better than simple? Why would you take the long effort-wasting path when there is an equally effective and more efficient means of doing something that has far less complexity?
The same goes for any organism or living thing, each one has a job that fits it into the evolutionary jigsaw puzzle perfectly, and if all that is required to do the work adequately is a single-celled organism, why spend excess effort creating a multi-celled organism that would do the same job. There would be no gain in creating something more complicated. Entropy increases enough as it is... I see no reason to speed it up...  :-/
Title: Re: Can we see our face??????
Post by srn347 on Sep 9th, 2007, 9:16pm
We are more complex, I'll admit. We are also smarter than other organisms. But telekinesis is our big advantage.
Title: Re: Can we see our face??????
Post by ima1trkpny on Sep 9th, 2007, 9:31pm

on 09/09/07 at 21:16:31, srn347 wrote:
We are more complex, I'll admit. We are also smarter than other organisms. But telekinesis is our big advantage.

Define "smarter"... we have a higher capacity to reason and self-awareness, but I have to say that humans can be some of the dumbest creatures you will ever meet and often lack even the most basic common sense that lower mammals have mastered.
As for telekinesis... the jury is still out on that one. As I have yet to see a demonstration, I am not convinced it exists... however by the same token science doesn't prove it doesn't, so I will be politely non-commital until I see actual evidence.
Title: Re: Can we see our face??????
Post by srn347 on Sep 9th, 2007, 9:36pm
It takes years of practice, and people who don't believe it exists won't be able to do it. But more relevantely, if we are the dumbest creatures on earth, how come we are the ones with weapons used for hunting them? Or what about us being the only one aware of all(or most) of the other species?
Title: Re: Can we see our face??????
Post by ima1trkpny on Sep 9th, 2007, 9:54pm

on 09/09/07 at 21:36:33, srn347 wrote:
It takes years of practice, and people who don't believe it exists won't be able to do it. But more relevantely, if we are the dumbest creatures on earth, how come we are the ones with weapons used for hunting them? Or what about us being the only one aware of all(or most) of the other species?

I said "can be" for a reason... we have the capability to out smart them... and for the most part we do. Or rather some people do and the rest of the population benefits from the other's technological or intellectual advancement. I am by no means implying that every human is dumb... just that we tend to think of ourselves in such a superior fashion we often overlook great weaknesses and underestimate the abilities of things we don't respect. Case in point read up on the Darwin Awards  ;)
As for telekinesis, I neither believe or disbelieve... I am merely ambivalent. Additionally, your disbelief statement is true of most things... psychologically, if you believe you can't do something, you create a self-fulfilling prophesy by always creating some obstical (or excuse) to impede success. However whether telekinesis falls under the category of mental blockage or doesn't lie in the realm of impossibility, I couldn't tell you. I would have to see solid evidence to make further conclusions.
Title: Re: Can we see our face??????
Post by srn347 on Sep 9th, 2007, 9:59pm
Some humans are dumb. But many are smart. It doesn't matter which one there are more of, since there are billions of both. Many people think 1/0=0, which is dumb. Most(if not all) of the people on these forums are smart.
Title: Re: Can we see our face??????
Post by Grimbal on Sep 9th, 2007, 10:00pm
Teleportation IS possible.  But it is not as sexy as you might believe.  It is called a car.
Title: Re: Can we see our face??????
Post by ima1trkpny on Sep 9th, 2007, 10:10pm

on 09/09/07 at 21:59:45, srn347 wrote:
Some humans are dumb. But many are smart. It doesn't matter which one there are more of, since there are billions of both. Many people think 1/0=0, which is dumb. Most(if not all) of the people on these forums are smart.

Did I ever say otherwise? I am just pointing out that we are not so far different from our fellow organisms... we have higher capabilities in some areas, but we don't always employ them. That was all I meant.

And thank you Grimbal  ::) but I was refering to the more physically moving things with your mind alone and no usage of mechanical force, etc. or instant transportation of yourself from one place to another without crossing the distance in between (at least not in this dimension... but let's not get into quantum physics and string theory tonight... :P )
Title: Re: Can we see our face??????
Post by srn347 on Sep 9th, 2007, 10:14pm

on 09/09/07 at 22:00:05, Grimbal wrote:
Teleportation IS possible.  But it is not as sexy as you might believe.  It is called a car.


Not transportation, teleportation! And who said it was sexy?!
Title: Re: Can we see our face??????
Post by ima1trkpny on Sep 9th, 2007, 10:55pm

on 09/09/07 at 22:14:08, srn347 wrote:
Not transportation, teleportation! And who said it was sexy?!

Actually, he isn't wrong... "tele" means distance and portation means to move, so to teleport, means to move over a distance. A car can move you over a distance, therefore you can consider a car a teleportation device in the literal and practical definition, as that is the one most commonly used by people for traveling.
Title: Re: Can we see our face??????
Post by towr on Sep 10th, 2007, 12:33am

on 09/09/07 at 20:48:54, srn347 wrote:
Ameoba's take over the world?! Humans are at the top of the chain
They only think they are.
There is no top of the chain. Every organism has its niche for which it is most suited. Cockroaches will quite probably outlive us as a species.


Quote:
and we have telekinesis(which hasn't been unlocked yet).
If it isn't unlocked yet, how do they know?
Title: Re: Can we see our face??????
Post by towr on Sep 10th, 2007, 12:40am

on 09/09/07 at 21:36:33, srn347 wrote:
It takes years of practice, and people who don't believe it exists won't be able to do it.
Well, to be fair, neither will those that do believe. Which is why they consistently failed to ever demonstrate it in the presence of any skeptic.
Believing is seeing.


Quote:
But more relevantely, if we are the dumbest creatures on earth, how come we are the ones with weapons used for hunting them? Or what about us being the only one aware of all(or most) of the other species?


From the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:

Quote:
Man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much – the wheel, New York, wars and so on – whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man – for precisely the same reasons.
Title: Re: Can we see our face??????
Post by mikedagr8 on Sep 10th, 2007, 2:26am
Have you ever seen The Matrix Trilogy? There is a line that people are viruses, they use up all resources, polute the area then move onto the next, killing as they go. Are you trying to say that we are as smart as one-celled organisms here according to that quotation?  ::)
Title: Re: Can we see our face??????
Post by Sir Col on Sep 10th, 2007, 7:52am
I think that I possess the powers of telekenesis. Moreover I am a slave to it in my attempts to function. That is, my mind conceives of, say, moving a cup, and irresistible forces manipulate my muscles to perform the incredible feat. Never once have my muscels performed the task independent of my mind first so willing it. Quite literally, mind over matter! Or am I missing something in what telekenesis actually is?
Title: Re: Can we see our face??????
Post by srn347 on Sep 10th, 2007, 6:57pm
If you are, here it is http://www.wingmakers.co.nz/Teleportation.html

everything you need to know about it.
Title: Re: Can we see our face??????
Post by ima1trkpny on Sep 10th, 2007, 7:23pm

on 09/10/07 at 18:57:04, srn347 wrote:
If you are, here it is http://www.wingmakers.co.nz/Teleportation.html

everything you need to know about it.

Sir Col was being facitious...  ::) Take a look at the discription once again...  ;)
Title: Re: Can we see our face??????
Post by srn347 on Sep 10th, 2007, 9:18pm
The muscles aren't involved in telekinesis.
Title: Re: Can we see our face??????
Post by Sir Col on Sep 11th, 2007, 12:14am
Just to clarify, psychokinesis is the process of manipulating matter by the power of the mind; such as, bending spoons, teleportation, and so on. Telekinesis is one aspect of psychokinesis which involves moving matter.

srn347, I am genuinely interested in hearing a coherent response on this subject, so I would be interested in your thoughts on the following three questions relating to telekinesis...

1) Think about a game of snooker. The blue ball moved because it was struck by the cue ball. The cue ball moved because it was struck by the cue. And so on. If the result of telekinesis is moving an object, then what is its immediate antecedent?

2) If we trace back the chain of causes and effects, where did it originate? That is, what was the first occurrence of physical activity?

3) How does the mind - the thought - span this divide?
Title: Re: Can we see our face??????
Post by srn347 on Sep 11th, 2007, 8:15pm

on 09/11/07 at 00:14:01, Sir Col wrote:
Just to clarify, psychokinesis is the process of manipulating matter by the power of the mind; such as, bending spoons, teleportation, and so on. Telekinesis is one aspect of psychokinesis which involves moving matter.

srn347, I am genuinely interested in hearing a coherent response on this subject, so I would be interested in your thoughts on the following three questions relating to telekinesis...

1) Think about a game of snooker. The blue ball moved because it was struck by the cue ball. The cue ball moved because it was struck by the cue. And so on. If the result of telekinesis is moving an object, then what is its immediate antecedent?

2) If we trace back the chain of causes and effects, where did it originate? That is, what was the first occurrence of physical activity?

3) How does the mind - the thought - span this divide?


Antecedent? I think it originated with God, or the 7 meridians or something. The mind is what is used, but not so much thought. Anyway, back to the subject so I can prove that I'm not a spammer. Assuming you(or the mirror) won't break, light would move just as fast as you so no light would enter or exit the mirror. The image would be the same as before you moved at light speed.


Powered by YaBB 1 Gold - SP 1.4!
Forum software copyright © 2000-2004 Yet another Bulletin Board