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        riddles >> general problem-solving / chatting / whatever >> Ethics of Interview Puzzles
        
(Message started by: amichail on Sep 20th, 2006, 8:53pm)
Title: Ethics of Interview Puzzles
Post by amichail on Sep 20th, 2006, 8:53pm
The use of puzzles for software engineering position interviews presents some ethical questions that need to be addressed.

These puzzles are used to measure IQ. Indeed, it appears that companies such as Microsoft and Google value high IQ over pretty well everything else: your university degree, the courses you took, the marks you received, the university where you obtained it, job experience, etc.

This is bad for several reasons:

   * it implies that companies care little about what universities teach in CS

   * it implies that most computer science graduates are not that bright

   * it implies that companies do not believe in a multidimensional form of intelligence; they appear to be big fans of the "g factor"

   * it is unfair for a student to pursue a computer science degree when there is little chance he/she will ever get a rewarding position because his/her IQ is not off the charts

But of course, companies do this because it appears to give them the results they want. Maybe when CS matures a bit and universities are more selective in the students they admit to their programs, things may change.
Title: Re: Ethics of Interview Puzzles
Post by towr on Sep 21st, 2006, 12:40am

on 09/20/06 at 20:53:38, amichail wrote:
This is bad for several reasons:

   * it implies that companies care little about what universities teach in CS
Often only a part of what is taught in CS will apply to the position in the company. They have to know if you're good at that part.


Quote:
   * it implies that most computer science graduates are not that bright
Most aren't. And even so, shouldn't they simply select the candidates they think are best, and not someone who just barely graduated?


Quote:
   * it implies that companies do not believe in a multidimensional form of intelligence; they appear to be big fans of the "g factor"
Not all dimensions of intelligence apply to the job at hand. You may have great language skills, but that hardly makes you suited to write mathematical software.


Quote:
   * it is unfair for a student to pursue a computer science degree when there is little chance he/she will ever get a rewarding position because his/her IQ is not off the charts
They don't deserve a rewarding position by merit of getting a degree. They have to earn that position.
If there is a scarcity of rewarding positions, there will be competition, and the best (according to whatever measure the employer uses) should get them.

I don't really see the problem.
Title: Re: Ethics of Interview Puzzles
Post by amichail on Sep 21st, 2006, 12:43am

on 09/21/06 at 00:40:12, towr wrote:
I don't really see the problem.

Well, at the very least, it's really cruel to accept students into a CS program who really have no hope of ever getting a rewarding position afterwards.

But this happens all the time.
Title: Re: Ethics of Interview Puzzles
Post by towr on Sep 21st, 2006, 4:01am

on 09/21/06 at 00:43:29, amichail wrote:
Well, at the very least, it's really cruel to accept students into a CS program who really have no hope of ever getting a rewarding position afterwards.

But this happens all the time.
Indeed, it happens all the time, in pretty much every field.

However, you also seem to imply that a CS study can't be its own reward; that its only worth is in a shot at a prestigious job. Surely you can't mean that. If people don't find the study itself rewarding, then likely no job in that field will satisfy them either.
Not to mention there are plenty of decent jobs outside of google and microsoft.
Title: Re: Ethics of Interview Puzzles
Post by amichail on Sep 21st, 2006, 4:05am

on 09/21/06 at 04:01:48, towr wrote:
Indeed, it happens all the time, in pretty much every field.

Some fields are more competitive than others. I doubt that you would have this problem to the same degree in medicine or law say.

CS is strange because a high IQ is desirable, but most CS grads are not particularly bright.
Title: Re: Ethics of Interview Puzzles
Post by towr on Sep 21st, 2006, 4:46am

on 09/21/06 at 04:05:58, amichail wrote:
Some fields are more competitive than others. I doubt that you would have this problem to the same degree in medicine or law say.
I think your doubt is unjustified. Positions at certain prestigious hospitals and law firms have a lot of compitition for them.


Quote:
CS is strange because a high IQ is desirable, but most CS grads are not particularly bright.
I can't say I know of any academic study for which high IQ isn't desired.
And I wouldn't say CS grads are not particularly bright compared to other fields; not without some evidence to back that up, anyway.
Title: Re: Ethics of Interview Puzzles
Post by rmsgrey on Sep 21st, 2006, 6:16am
So what are the vocational prospects for a maths degree?

How about my friend with an ASNAC (Anglo-Saxon, Norse and Celtic) degree? Isn't it unfair of the university to offer a degree course with no prospects of getting a plum job at the end?

And where is the unfairness? How many universities are recruiting for their CS courses by saying "get a CS degree and you're guaranteed a great career"?

Would it not be more unfair for a university to exclude someone who seeks a degree purely for the love of knowledge and their own intellectual satisfaction simply because they aren't going to go out and get a job in the industry? (assuming, of course, that they're capable of doing the academic work to a sufficient standard)
Title: Re: Ethics of Interview Puzzles
Post by amichail on Sep 21st, 2006, 6:24am

on 09/21/06 at 06:16:05, rmsgrey wrote:
So what are the vocational prospects for a maths degree?

How about my friend with an ASNAC (Anglo-Saxon, Norse and Celtic) degree? Isn't it unfair of the university to offer a degree course with no prospects of getting a plum job at the end?

And where is the unfairness? How many universities are recruiting for their CS courses by saying "get a CS degree and you're guaranteed a great career"?

Would it not be more unfair for a university to exclude someone who seeks a degree purely for the love of knowledge and their own intellectual satisfaction simply because they aren't going to go out and get a job in the industry? (assuming, of course, that they're capable of doing the academic work to a sufficient standard)

I think universities need to be more selective and/or more honest about the job prospects of their students.

An IQ test should be a requirement before a student even attempts a CS degree.  That way, it would be more obvious as to what sort of career is possible for that student.  No surprises.
Title: Re: Ethics of Interview Puzzles
Post by rmsgrey on Sep 21st, 2006, 6:26am

on 09/21/06 at 06:24:20, amichail wrote:
I think universities need to be more selective and/or more honest about the job prospects of their students.

An IQ test should be a requirement before a student even attempts a CS degree.  That way, it would be more obvious as to what sort of career is possible for that student.  No surprises.

So what then happens to the seeker of knowledge (who may, in fact be capable of an extremely high academic mark) who is ostensibly catered to by universities, but is now excluded on the grounds he is unlikely to find a job in the real world?
Title: Re: Ethics of Interview Puzzles
Post by amichail on Sep 21st, 2006, 6:30am

on 09/21/06 at 06:26:35, rmsgrey wrote:
So what then happens to the seeker of knowledge (who may, in fact be capable of an extremely high academic mark) who is ostensibly catered to by universities, but is now excluded on the grounds he is unlikely to find a job in the real world?

The point is to avoid misleading students about their prospects. They should be warned not to major in CS if it is unlikely that they will be successful. They could choose to ignore that advice at their own risk.
Title: Re: Ethics of Interview Puzzles
Post by towr on Sep 21st, 2006, 8:33am

on 09/21/06 at 06:16:05, rmsgrey wrote:
So what are the vocational prospects for a maths degree?
Well, there is always the option of becoming a professor of mathematics (or anything for that matter) at a prestigious university. :P


on 09/21/06 at 06:24:20, amichail wrote:
An IQ test should be a requirement before a student even attempts a CS degree.
What does a general IQ test really tell about someones ability to program? And even an IQ test specifically tailored to CS, would still only give a snapshot evaluation. Someone might be the brightest bulb in the galaxy, yet simply have had an awfull day, and neighbours that kept him up all last night.
It would make more sense just to evaluate their program after the first trimester (or quarter/semester), and after their first year, then again after their bachelor.


Quote:
That way, it would be more obvious as to what sort of career is possible for that student.  No surprises.
You can't really give a good evaluation of what career is possible for a student untill after he did the study. She might suddenly bloom in the third year, who knows.
Certainly, you should do your best to inform and guide a student, but not base lifechanging decisions on a dubious snapshot test.
Title: Re: Ethics of Interview Puzzles
Post by amichail on Sep 21st, 2006, 3:59pm

on 09/21/06 at 08:33:19, towr wrote:
What does a general IQ test really tell about someones ability to program? And even an IQ test specifically tailored to CS, would still only give a snapshot evaluation. Someone might be the brightest bulb in the galaxy, yet simply have had an awfull day, and neighbours that kept him up all last night.
It would make more sense just to evaluate their program after the first trimester (or quarter/semester), and after their first year, then again after their bachelor.

You can't really give a good evaluation of what career is possible for a student untill after he did the study. She might suddenly bloom in the third year, who knows.
Certainly, you should do your best to inform and guide a student, but not base lifechanging decisions on a dubious snapshot test.

The problem is that universities do not generally test IQ in their standard sorts of exams and so the student's coursework performance may be entirely misleading as top companies do test IQ.

Some people may make an argument that it would be unethical for a university to give exams that require not only extensive studying but also a very high IQ -- after all, students have no control over their IQ.

I think the issue here is that universities face a CS enrollment crisis and have little incentive to discourage students from studying CS -- even if many of those students have bleak prospects in the field.
Title: Re: Ethics of Interview Puzzles
Post by SWF on Sep 21st, 2006, 6:19pm
Employers should be able to hire based on whatever criteria they want. Hiring based on a skill the employer desires without regard to whether the candidate was able to afford a college education seems pretty fair to me.  If a student contracts a university to teach him CS, then that is what he should be taught, not whatever subject Microsoft chooses to ask in job interviews.

Anyway, is IQ really a definitive quantity for a person that he can not improve. I certainly do not think so.

Amichail, are you saying that universities are promising great careers for anyone who gets a CS degree. If that is the case, then there is an ethics problem there.
Title: Re: Ethics of Interview Puzzles
Post by amichail on Sep 21st, 2006, 6:24pm

on 09/21/06 at 18:19:22, SWF wrote:
Amichail, are you saying that universities are promising great careers for anyone who gets a CS degree. If that is the case, then there is an ethics problem there.

I think it is wrong for universities to accept students who are unlikely to succeed. I see this as a form of deception.
Title: Re: Ethics of Interview Puzzles
Post by towr on Sep 22nd, 2006, 3:18am

on 09/21/06 at 15:59:21, amichail wrote:
The problem is that universities do not generally test IQ in their standard sorts of exams and so the student's coursework performance may be entirely misleading as top companies do test IQ.
Universities are not "company drone" factories, nor should they be. And again, there are plenty of companies, providing satisfying jobs aside from the 'top'.
"Getting a job" is not the measure of academic accomplishment. Winning the noble prize ranks higher, anyway. But it'd be rediculous to dissuade people from joining the field just because there's little chance they'll win it.


on 09/21/06 at 18:24:34, amichail wrote:
I think it is wrong for universities to accept students who are unlikely to succeed. I see this as a form of deception.
I think an IQ test is a very bad measure to see if someone can succeed in the field of CS. If someone clearly cannot attain a degree, certainly he/she should be told as soon as it becomes clear. But even then it should be the persons own choice whether to continue or not.
Studying is in the first place an enrichment of life. A goal in itself, not a means. It makes me sad to think all should be in service of 'the big buck'.
In my opinion it is much worse not to give people a chance to succeed, than letting them take the risk of failing. Unless you pretend they are certain to succeed, giving people a chance is not deception, even if it is a slim chance. It is important however to give people a fair evaluation of their academic performance.
Title: Re: Ethics of Interview Puzzles
Post by amichail on Sep 22nd, 2006, 3:45am

on 09/22/06 at 03:18:11, towr wrote:
It is important however to give people a fair evaluation of their academic performance.

So is it acceptable for a university exam to require a high IQ for some questions? If so, for what percentage of the exam would this be acceptable? Should students be allowed to pass without answering any "thinking" questions?
Title: Re: Ethics of Interview Puzzles
Post by amichail on Sep 22nd, 2006, 3:55am

on 09/22/06 at 03:18:11, towr wrote:
Universities are not "company drone" factories, nor should they be. And again, there are plenty of companies, providing satisfying jobs aside from the 'top'.
"Getting a job" is not the measure of academic accomplishment. Winning the noble prize ranks higher, anyway. But it'd be rediculous to dissuade people from joining the field just because there's little chance they'll win it.

My point is not that getting a job at a top company is the only measure of academic accomplishment. A research position or a startup would be excellent also.

However, we disagree in that I do not believe it is worthwhile for someone to major in a field for which he/she will be merely mediocre.

I think people should maximize their potential and strive to be the very best at whatever they do. Some day genetic testing will help in that regard.
Title: Re: Ethics of Interview Puzzles
Post by towr on Sep 22nd, 2006, 4:00am

on 09/22/06 at 03:45:35, amichail wrote:
So is it acceptable for a university exam to require a high IQ for some questions?
In a roundabout way; some subjects require mor eintelligence than others. Certainly for courses in the masters degree, I'd expect some tough problems. But it won't be a matter of "your IQ must be at least this high to be on this ride". IQ is a measure over all sorts of intellectual skills, the subject at hand might only require a few of those.


Quote:
If so, for what percentage of the exam would this be acceptable? Should students be allowed to pass without answering any "thinking" questions?
There are usually different trajectories to a degree, some will be more knowledge oriented, others more 'problem-solve' oriented. And for individual courses the difference can be much greater, some may be solely a matter of memorizing facts, and others mostly skill oriented.
In the end, the curriculum will depend greatly on what the professors of the field deem important. Typically in the bachelor phase, there is a more general approach to the field, so there will be more balance. And in the masters phase you can get more specialized.
Title: Re: Ethics of Interview Puzzles
Post by towr on Sep 22nd, 2006, 4:03am

on 09/22/06 at 03:55:56, amichail wrote:
However, we disagree in that I do not believe it is worthwhile for someone to major in a field for which he/she will be merely mediocre.
One might find it quite fulfilling just to learn.


Quote:
I think people should maximize their potential and strive to be the very best at whatever they do.
How can they be the best at what they are, if they totally neglect an avenue, and are not even mediocre?
Title: Re: Ethics of Interview Puzzles
Post by rmsgrey on Sep 22nd, 2006, 10:52am

on 09/21/06 at 18:24:34, amichail wrote:
I think it is wrong for universities to accept students who are unlikely to succeed. I see this as a form of deception.

Define "succeed". My inclination is to say that those who leave the course with a degree have succeeded at the course, regardless of what then happens to them.

This seems to be a very personal issue for you. Is it that you feel people in general are suffering as a result of the current policies, or is it that you personally were expecting to find it easy to get a job, and are now finding yourself disappointed?
Title: Re: Ethics of Interview Puzzles
Post by amichail on Sep 22nd, 2006, 3:00pm

on 09/22/06 at 10:52:52, rmsgrey wrote:
Define "succeed". My inclination is to say that those who leave the course with a degree have succeeded at the course, regardless of what then happens to them.

This seems to be a very personal issue for you. Is it that you feel people in general are suffering as a result of the current policies, or is it that you personally were expecting to find it easy to get a job, and are now finding yourself disappointed?

Some of the students I have taught at university fit that description.  I really don't see how a student who graduates with barely a passing average would find any reasonable job -- let alone a rewarding one.
Title: Re: Ethics of Interview Puzzles
Post by Whiskey Tango Foxtrot on Sep 22nd, 2006, 5:13pm
But one must also realize that many universities, especially in the States, are starting to take on the characteristics of a major industry.  Most of today's college students have experienced the feeling of being nothing more than a product of the machine that is college education.  It's becoming more of a reality than a feeling now, as some universities are even referring to its students as "assets" and "expenses" in their financial reports.  The larger the school becomes, (I go to one with 40,000) the more it starts to resemble an assembly line.

They do consider their financial interests, not just the ability of their students to succeed.
Title: Re: Ethics of Interview Puzzles
Post by amichail on Sep 22nd, 2006, 5:25pm

on 09/22/06 at 17:13:51, Whiskey Tango Foxtrot wrote:
But one must also realize that many universities, especially in the States, are starting to take on the characteristics of a major industry.  Most of today's college students have experienced the feeling of being nothing more than a product of the machine that is college education.  It's becoming more of a reality than a feeling now, as some universities are even referring to its students as "assets" and "expenses" in their financial reports.  The larger the school becomes, (I go to one with 40,000) the more it starts to resemble an assembly line.

They do consider their financial interests, not just the ability of their students to succeed.

The problem is that too many people are going to university and many of them don't really belong there. Moreover, as enrollment in CS plummets, the quality of students who do major in CS gets even worse.
Title: Re: Ethics of Interview Puzzles
Post by towr on Sep 23rd, 2006, 1:20pm

on 09/22/06 at 17:25:03, amichail wrote:
The problem is that too many people are going to university and many of them don't really belong there.
In my opinion it's not possible for too many people to be going to university. An educated populace is in a country's best interest. And children of educated parents have a better chance to excel, to succeed, because they grow up in a place where knowledge is valued.

Mind you, I'm not saying they should all go to the same sort of university. Not everyone belongs in a Harvard or Yale. But there's plenty of room to have top universities and public universities.


Quote:
Moreover, as enrollment in CS plummets, the quality of students who do major in CS gets even worse.
So enrollment plummets, and the students that do enroll should be denied access?
Where do you plan to get the next generation of programmers from?
Title: Re: Ethics of Interview Puzzles
Post by amichail on Sep 23rd, 2006, 3:59pm

on 09/23/06 at 13:20:31, towr wrote:
So enrollment plummets, and the students that do enroll should be denied access?
Where do you plan to get the next generation of programmers from?

I don't think many companies will lower their standards. They will just look for talent elsewhere such as from India or China.
Title: Re: Ethics of Interview Puzzles
Post by towr on Sep 24th, 2006, 7:06am

on 09/23/06 at 15:59:41, amichail wrote:
I don't think many companies will lower their standards. They will just look for talent elsewhere such as from India or China.
If they can find better, cheaper, programmers there, they'd do that anyway. Heck, even if they're not as good as the ones here, you can get two or three for the price of one; as long as they're good enough, it may be worth it.
And forcing a shortage of programmers here certainly won't slow that process down though.


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