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        riddles >> general problem-solving / chatting / whatever >> Umm... What two blood types ....?
        
(Message started by: Mugwump101 on Feb 23^rd, 2004, 10:56pm)

Title: Umm... What two blood types ....?
Post by Mugwump101 on Feb 23^rd, 2004, 10:56pm

I have a question for science, and I'm rather confused, and I research it and I still can't find anyway. What two bloods when they attract or whatever, it turns out hazardous for the offspring? Um.... Does anyone know.... I'm sorry if this is the wrong place to ask, and thanks a lot again guys.

Title: Re: Umm... What two blood types ....?
Post by towr on Feb 23^rd, 2004, 11:38pm

I'm not sure what you're asking.

If you're asking which blood related genes can form a danger for a child, that's (among others) the case when the child inherits two copies of the sickle-cell anemia gene (one from each parent).

If you're just wondering about blood transfusion
everyone can accept O
AB can accept everything
A can get A and O
B can get B and O
O get only receive O

There's also the resus-factor, which can pose a danger for a child if it is positive, and the mother is negative and has been exposed to the antigen before. In that case the child may be attacked by the mothers immune system, I think..

Title: Re: Umm... What two blood types ....?
Post by Mugwump101 on Feb 24^th, 2004, 7:23pm

Thanks but um... This is the same information my mother told me, but I think what I'm looking for is like What two blood contract and reproduce a child that can reject it's own blood? one of the kids in my class told me, the answers a B+ and B- for the mother and father, I think that was what I was looking for because my teacher said maybe that's it, and she forgot to look it up herself. Or is what you said what I'm looking for?

Title: Re: Umm... What two blood types ....?
Post by Icarus on Feb 24^th, 2004, 8:02pm

The best I can come up with for fitting your description is the Rhesus factor.

If a man with a positive blood type (any positive type: A+, B+, AB+, O+) has children with a woman of negative blood type, their children may be threatened.

The Rhesus factor is determined by a single gene pair. For most genes, people have a pair: one from their father, one from their mother. The Rhesus factor gene has only two choices: + or -. The positive gene is dominant: that means that if you receive a + from one parent and a - from the other, you will have a positive blood type. Only if you receive two - genes will your blood type be negative.

The Rhesus factor determines whether or not we have the Rhesus antigen (a type of protein) in our blood. Those with positive blood types have this antigen, those with negative blood types don't. The significance is that our body's immune system uses antigens to recognize what is part of us vs. what is foreign and should be attacked. If you introduce blood of a positive person into someone with a negative blood type, his immune system will detect the Rhesus antigen, and attack the blood cells in the transfusion since it does not recognize the antigen. Conversely, if give negative blood to someone with a positive bloodtype (but otherwise the same letter type), the white blood cells within the transfused blood will attack the receiver's cells, but there are only a few of these, so the affect is minimal. Since the negative blood does not have foreign antigens, the receiver's immune system does not recognize it as foreign, and so does not attack.

Now consider a positive father & negative mother. Since she is negative, her gene pair must be (--). His gene pair may either be (++) or (+-). Each passes on one of their genes to their offspring. The mother must pass a -. If the father passes a -, the child will be negative, and free from worries. Suppose instead that the father passes a +. The child's pair will be (+-), so she will positive like her father.

The blood of the mother and child are not supposed to come in contact, but rather transfer oxygen and nutrients through the placenta. But this barrier often fails to be perfect. For first pregnancies, it is usually in good shape, at least during the most critical time. But in the course of pregnancy, the placenta can be damaged. Additional pregnancies are far more likely to have damaged placentas. This damaged allows some of the baby's blood into the mother's blood system, and vice versa. Now the mother's immune system detects the foreign antigen and ramps up to attack it. Again, most of this attack is turned aside at the placenta, but the same damage that allowed the baby's blood out, allows the mother's white blood cells in, where they immediately start attacking everything they contact.

The greater the placental damage, the worse this effect is. If bad enough, it can threaten the health, and even the life, of the infant.

If the mother is positive and the baby is negative, this problem can also arise, but then it is the baby's immature immune system that is attacking, so the danger is not so great.

The problem can also arise with other antigens than the Rhesus one. For instance, the other factor in determing blood type (the letter part) is determined by another gene pair, but this time there are three possible values for each gene: A, B, or O. A and B are both dominant over O. So if someone has (AO) or (BO) as their gene pair, then they will have type A or type B blood. But A and B are not dominant over each other, so if both are present: (AB), then the person has type AB blood. Thus the possible gene pairs are:

Type O blood: (OO)
Type A blood: (AO) or (AA)
Type B blood: (BO) or (BB)
Type AB blood: (AB)

Again, your blood type determines whether or not either of two antigens are in your blood. These antigens, called the A and B antigens, are present if you have the genes for them. Those with type O blood have neither antigen. Those with type AB blood have both. This is why those with type O blood can donate to those with the other bloodtypes, but cannot receive blood from them. Because O blood differs by missing antigens, the immune systems of the recipients do not detect that it is foreign. But giving any other blood type to an O means adding foreign antigens to the mix, which causes the type O recipient's immune system to attack.

A type O mother with a type A or B child (she can't have a type AB child) may result in similar problems. But for reasons unknown to me, this does not seem to be nearly as big a problem as the Rhesus factor. While negative mothers with positive children represent only a small percentage of pregnancies, type O mothers with type A or B children are quite common. Type O blood and type A blood are almost equally common, and are significantly more common than types B or AB. This leads to a large number of births with type O mother & type A child. If this were a serious health risk, like the rhesus factor, pregnancy would be much more risky than it already is.

Title: Re: Umm... What two blood types ....?
Post by Icarus on Feb 24^th, 2004, 8:09pm

The problem with producing a long answer is that other posts get made while you are typing.

There is no problem with blood types that leads to a child rejecting his or her own blood. (Other genetic abnormalities may result in this, but they are usually the result of genetic errors, or of recessive genetic defects in both parents - traits hidden in the parents that turn up unexpectedly in the child because both parents supply the flawed gene. Such occurences are fortunately very rare.)

The B-, B+ situation you describe is simply the Rhesus factor again. The B bloodtype adds nothing to this - any mixture of positive father & negative mother is equally at risk.

Title: Re: Umm... What two blood types ....?
Post by John_Gaughan on Feb 24^th, 2004, 8:13pm

Icarus... the human encyclopedia :-)

Thank you for the explanation, and I did not even ask for an answer. I have always wanted to know this, but it was very low on my "take time to learn about it" list.

Title: Re: Umm... What two blood types ....?
Post by Icarus on Feb 24^th, 2004, 8:20pm

Well - don't put too much credit to it. I fully expect someone with more medical knowledge, or more recent experiences with biology classes, to point out errors. For instance, I am only about 95% sure that it is Mother -, Child + that is the bad case, instead of vice versa.

Title: Re: Umm... What two blood types ....?
Post by Mugwump101 on Feb 24^th, 2004, 9:06pm

Thank you so very much Icarus. I understand it much better now, and I had my mother have a look at the information. She told me it was the same thing she explained but She didn't say anything with the father ( and that got me confuse on Blood types ... there were suppose to be two... but she explained it doesn't matter with blood types but the RH factor and so on...) THANK YOU SO MUCH for making me understand it better.
btw,What field are you in to know so much about Science,Mathematics, riddles, and more completed things ( it's fanscinating how you learned so much about everything! You don't have to answer if it's a bother to you ^_^) THANKS AGAIN!

Title: Re: Umm... What two blood types ....?
Post by Mugwump101 on Feb 24^th, 2004, 9:10pm

on 02/24/04 at 20:20:02, Icarus wrote:

No, No your right! ^_^! I just didn't understand it at first when my mother explained it quickly because she had to go to work soon. My mom works as a Lab Techinist (sp?) in the field of Blood Bank. She studies Hematology, Mircrobiography, and other sciences. So she told me that was what she said before, I guess I wasn't listening welll...THANKS AGAIN!

Title: Re: Umm... What two blood types ....?
Post by Icarus on Feb 25^th, 2004, 4:50pm

Well, it's nice to have some of my rantings confirmed by an actual expert!

My training is all in math and physics (I have degrees in both), and I work as an engineer. But everything I have found interesting at some point, I can usually remember. For some reason, my mind grasps tightly to dry facts, while it lets memories of events and people fade quickly away. My family and friends are always amazed at how I remember obscure facts but have little or no recollection at all of significant events in my past. If this keeps up, by the time I'm 80 I should know just about every useless fact known to humankind, but have no idea at all how and where I learned them. :-/

Title: Re: Umm... What two blood types ....?
Post by Mugwump101 on Feb 25^th, 2004, 7:21pm

on 02/25/04 at 16:50:54, Icarus wrote:

WOW! That's so cool! Useless facts are fanscinating to keep in mind, and to teach others. Too bad though not remembering your past. THANKS ALOT again! Have a nice day!

Title: Re: Umm... What two blood types ....?
Post by pedronunezmd on Jun 7^th, 2004, 9:07pm

on 02/24/04 at 20:02:22, Icarus wrote:

A type O mother with a type A or B child (she can't have a type AB child) may result in similar problems. But for reasons unknown to me, this does not seem to be nearly as big a problem as the Rhesus factor. While negative mothers with positive children represent only a small percentage of pregnancies, type O mothers with type A or B children are quite common. Type O blood and type A blood are almost equally common, and are significantly more common than types B or AB. This leads to a large number of births with type O mother & type A child. If this were a serious health risk, like the rhesus factor, pregnancy would be much more risky than it already is.

ABO incompatabilities are very common in pregnancy, as you suggested, but usually the problems encountered are relatively minor, such as mild bilirubin levels leading to jaundice after birth. The theory why the problems tend to be more minor is that the more serious reactions between mother and fetus lead to very early spontaneous abortion.

As an interesting aside, which one of the following mothers is most likely to be at risk for developing anti-Rh antibodies which could then endanger the next pregnancy?
Mother#1 is A+ gives birth to child who is A-
Mother#2 is O- gives birth to child who is A+
Mother#3 is O+ gives birth to child who is A+
Mother#4 is O- gives birth to child who is O+
Mother#5 is AB- gives birth to child who is A-

Title: Re: Umm... What two blood types ....?
Post by towr on Jun 8^th, 2004, 12:30am

#2 and #4
If the mother is resus positive, she won't devellop antibodies (she'd be attacking herself)
If the baby is resus negative the mother won't encounter a resus antigen to react to.
So for a problem to occur the mother must be negative and the baby positive (And I don't think the other factors, ABO, matter)

Title: Re: Umm... What two blood types ....?
Post by pedronunezmd on Jun 8^th, 2004, 2:26pm

You almost got it, Towr! Now narrow down you answer to only the one mother who is most likely to develop the Rh antibodies during the stated first pregnancy.

Title: Re: Umm... What two blood types ....?
Post by Leonid Broukhis on Jun 8^th, 2004, 5:46pm

on 06/08/04 at 14:26:07, pedronunezmd wrote:

You almost got it, Towr! Now narrow down you answer to only the one mother who is most likely to develop the Rh antibodies during the stated first pregnancy.

#2 will develop ABO antibodies in addition to the Rh ones, so it is worse.

Title: Re: Umm... What two blood types ....?
Post by pedronunezmd on Jun 9^th, 2004, 3:23pm

Almost!

Hint #1: [hide]When does a person with type O blood develop antibodies to the A antigen found in type A blood?[/hide]

Hint #2: [hide]The answer to the above question (in hint #1) is not "when the person is exposed to type A blood".[/hide]

Hint #3: [hide]When does a person with Rh negative blood develop antibodies to the Rh antigen?[/hide]

Title: Re: Umm... What two blood types ....?
Post by Leonid Broukhis on Jun 9^th, 2004, 3:43pm

Well, exposure to the type A blood is a necessary condition, isn't it?
Does the titre of the antigen has anything to do with it, or the state of the host immune system? If it gets more excited because there are two alien antigens, will it produce more antibodies for both?

Title: Re: Umm... What two blood types ....?
Post by pedronunezmd on Jun 9^th, 2004, 3:59pm

Quote:

Well, exposure to the type A blood is a necessary condition, isn't it?

The answer to that question is "nope".

Title: Re: Umm... What two blood types ....?
Post by Leonid Broukhis on Jun 9^th, 2004, 5:04pm

on 06/09/04 at 15:59:26, pedronunezmd wrote:

The answer to that question is "nope".

Are there other tissues that have that antigen expressed?

Title: Re: Umm... What two blood types ....?
Post by pedronunezmd on Jun 9^th, 2004, 5:08pm

Quote:

Are there other tissues that have that antigen expressed?

Heading in the right direction. Consider one additional hint: [hide]If you have type O blood, and you've never been pregnant and you've never had a blood transfusion of any kind, and I give you type A blood, what will happen?[/hide]

Title: Re: Umm... What two blood types ....?
Post by Leonid Broukhis on Jun 9^th, 2004, 5:28pm

My understanding is that a relatively inefficient (cellular-level) general purpose mechanism that recognizes whether a newly encountered protein is alien triggers production of antibodies, which then combine with that protein more effectively on a molecular level and form a compound that is recognized by the "garbage collection" mechanism that targets those compounds specifically and is therefore more efficient than the general purpose one.

Title: Re: Umm... What two blood types ....?
Post by pedronunezmd on Jun 11^th, 2004, 4:15am

Here is the explanation for why only mother #[hide]4[/hide] is considered to be at high risk of developing Rh antibodies.

First, regarding ABO incompatibility. ::[hide]The difference between ABO incompatibility and almost all of the other antigen incompatibilities (including Rh incompatibility) is that a person who is type A has preformed antibodies to B antigen, person who is type B has preformed antibodies to A antigen, person who is type O has preformed antibodies to A and B antigen, and person who is type AB has no preformed antibodies. The antibodies form due to exposure in all diets to antigens similar to A and B, so that if that antigen is foreign to you, you will always develop antibodies, even without exposure to blood through a transfusion or pregancy. This is why, if you give someone with type A blood and transfusion with type B blood, the will have an immediate transfusion reaction, even if they've never received a blood transfusion before.[/hide]::

Second, why Rh antibodies occur. ::[hide]Rh antibodies are not preformed in every person who is Rh negative. It does require exposure to blood to develop the antibody response to the Rh antigen. So obviously, the only people at risk at all for developing Rh antibodies are people who are Rh negative and exposed to Rh positive blood.;[/hide]::

And last, why there was only one answer to the question about the mothers, and not two answers. ::[hide]When a mother who has both an ABO incompatibility and an Rh incompatilibity with the baby, the preformed antibodies to the A or B antigens attack and destroy any of the baby's red blood cells that enter the mother's circulation. Therefore, there is no time for the body to even realize that there is a foreign Rh antigen present, and thus the mother does not make antibodies to the Rh antigen. Rarely (1-2% of the time) the mother will still make antibodies to Rh antigen, even if there is an ABO incompatibility, but this is far less likely than the 70-95% chance in the Rh incompatibility only mothers.[/hide]::

And there is your biology trivia riddle of the day.

Title: Re: Umm... What two blood types ....?
Post by towr on Jun 11^th, 2004, 6:54am

on 06/11/04 at 04:15:40, pedronunezmd wrote:

This is why, if you give someone with type A blood and transfusion with type B blood, the will have an immediate transfusion reaction, even if they've never received a blood transfusion before.

I've read there's only a severe reaction after a second transfusion, and not with a first one (when dealing with small amounts of blood being transfused, and not liters at a time)

Title: Re: Umm... What two blood types ....?
Post by Leonid Broukhis on Jun 11^th, 2004, 8:18am

on 06/11/04 at 04:15:40, pedronunezmd wrote:

::[hide]The antibodies form due to exposure in all diets to antigens similar to A and B, so that if that antigen is foreign to you, you will always develop antibodies, even without exposure to blood through a transfusion or pregancy. This is why, if you give someone with type A blood and transfusion with type B blood, the will have an immediate transfusion reaction, even if they've never received a blood transfusion before.[/hide]::

Thanks, I did not know about the dietary source of the ABO antibodies. Do vegetarians have them as well?

Title: Re: Umm... What two blood types ....?
Post by pedronunezmd on Jun 11^th, 2004, 4:35pm

on 06/11/04 at 06:54:02, towr wrote:

I've read there's only a severe reaction after a second transfusion, and not with a first one (when dealing with small amounts of blood being transfused, and not liters at a time)

This is definitely not true when dealing with ABO incompatibilities. First of all, when dealing with ABO incompatibilites, we are dealing with the most severe of all the transfusion reactions, even when the transfusion amount is small.

The transfusion reactions caused by ABO antibodies may occur during the first transfusion or subsequent transfusions. There are 2 exceptions: newborns who have not yet formed the antibodies to the ABO blood group antigens, and elderly people who have declining antibody titers due to their age. Everyone else is with near certainty going to have a severe reaction with the transfusion of an ABO incompatible blood, and the reaction is usually apparent within a few minutes of starting the transfusion, even if this is the very first exposure to anyone else's blood ever.

Title: Re: Umm... What two blood types ....?
Post by pedronunezmd on Jun 11^th, 2004, 4:44pm

on 06/11/04 at 08:18:08, Leonid Broukhis wrote:

Thanks, I did not know about the dietary source of the ABO antibodies. Do vegetarians have them as well?

Excellent question. However, the antibodies form due to the fact that the ABO antigens are also produced by some plants and microorganisms. Usually, by about 6 months of age, all people have already developed a healthy antibody response to these antigens. Being a vegetarian will have no effect on the development of the antibodies. I suppose, however, that if you were immediately placed in a bubble at birth and fed only an elemental diet, then you would not develop the ABO antibodies at all.

Title: Re: Umm... What two blood types ....?
Post by towr on Jun 13^th, 2004, 8:07am

So.. does that MD at the end of your name mean you're a doctor?
(It helps to know where information is coming from when I have to deal with a conflict between what I think I know and new informtion)

Title: Re: Umm... What two blood types ....?
Post by pedronunezmd on Jun 16^th, 2004, 7:11pm

I do happen to be a doctor, but I learned about the Rh and ABO systems in biology in undergraduate school. (I use pedronunezmd as my screen name just about everywhere I go, similar to what I've seen rmsgrey post elsewhere.)

Title: Re: Umm... What two blood types ....?
Post by bagoftricks on Nov 29^th, 2004, 11:09pm

is anybody talking about hemophilia here.
its the life threatening disease where u will bleed to death, when hurt coz ur blood doesn't clot.
here if both parents are hemophilia minor(no actual disease but presence og mutated gene) then the child maybe a hemophilia major(actual presence of disease)

http://www.hemophilia.org/
check this web site if u need more info

Title: Re: Umm... What two blood types ....?
Post by windyview on Jun 21^st, 2007, 11:15am

Hi

I read with interest your forum on ABO and Rhesus factors... I will say first off that a lot of what you said is over my head but I just wanted to comment (from experience) that I was a 3 time 0+ mom who gave birth to A+ babies.. I had learned about rh- problems in high school biology but was not informed or prepared for the ABO problem that I experienced with my 3 childrens births.. They all developed jaundice after my c sections and had to be under bilirubin lights for several days. My second birth was the one closest to having to have a complete transfusion. My kids are now having babies of their own and I have trouble explaining exactly what happened after they were born that made them need the bilirubin lights. If my blood and their blood was incompatible why was it that the problem didnt require treatment until after they were born? I know or at least I think that it has something to do with the red cell count vs the white cell count which is usually too high, possibly mimicking white blood cells attacking the red blood cells which they think are foreign? But if the baby has A+ blood why does it perceive it to be foreign? or am I way off here? Please explain if you would in very simple terms :) Thankyou so very much...