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        riddles >> easy >> Family Relations riddle
        
(Message started by: Trandor on Jul 23^rd, 2002, 11:44pm)

Title: Family Relations riddle
Post by Trandor on Jul 23^rd, 2002, 11:44pm

My maths teacher gave our class this riddle way back when I was in grade 9, and I came up with a different answer to what he had(from a book). I was unable to convince him my answer was logically correct and that the book he had was wrong.

His book said the answer was that he is talking to himself in the mirror. My answer is that he is talking to his son.

I'm wondering what answer everyone else has, and assuming there is one, what the official answer to this riddle is?

Trandor.

Title: Re: Family Relations riddle
Post by Zen Crane on Jul 23^rd, 2002, 11:53pm

Could he be making a reference to his (non-existent?) nephew?
That's what I came up with (i.e. "my father's son" or his brother who's the father of this man, the nephew in question).

--Tim

Title: Re: Family Relations riddle
Post by Scott on Jul 24^th, 2002, 12:13am

damn this scares me.

You were 100% correct, the person is the speaker's son.

"Fathers son"- speaker
Therefore, "this person's father"- speaker
Therefore the person being spoken about is the son of the speaker.

Physics and math textbooks (algebra 2 and above) should not be believed - I had a physics teacher in high school that kept a list of errors from our text book... the errors numbered 100+.

Teachers who put that kind of faith in a textbook are ignorant or stupid, and I think either way they hurts students. I'm glad my CS professors in college have known what they talk about.

Title: Re: Family Relations riddle
Post by Andrew Vit on Jul 24^th, 2002, 1:11am

It would appear that both answers could be correct. In fact, I question the wording of the question:

Does it really matter to whom he is speaking? shouldn't the question really be asking whom he is speaking about?

Title: Re: Family Relations riddle
Post by James G on Jul 24^th, 2002, 1:12am

Ok, not sure about this, but... Seems to me he is talking _about_ his son, but there is no indication of who this little speech is directed _to_, which was the question (yes?).

Title: Re: Family Relations riddle
Post by Trandor on Jul 24^th, 2002, 1:30am

Good point, I would argue that the question is worded wrong, and thus my answer is also worded wrong.
So my answer should be "He is talking about his son."

I don't think there is enough information to answer who he is talking to.

Trandor.

Title: Re: Family Relations riddle
Post by Chuma on Jul 24^th, 2002, 3:26am

If you look closely at the phrasing...

"Brothers and Sisters, I have none" This I am taking to mean that the speaker has no siblings.

"But this man's Father" The person he is referring to's father..

"is *MY* Father's son." If he was referring to his OWN son, then this final phrase would be incorrect as the speaker would be saying that his son's grandfather is his own son. This is obviously wrong.

The solution I would guess is far more straight forward.

EITHER He is talking to his HALF-Brother OR is referring to a holy man (father).

Title: Re: Family Relations riddle
Post by Trandor on Jul 25^th, 2002, 12:32am

Quote:

"is *MY* Father's son." If he was referring to his OWN son, then this final phrase would be incorrect as the speaker would be saying that his son's grandfather is his own son. This is obviously wrong.

If I have no siblings then my father's son is obviously me.
So saying "this man's father is my father's son" would be like saying "this man's father is me", and thus I'd be talking about my son.

Trandor

Title: Re: Family Relations riddle
Post by Rehan on Aug 23^rd, 2002, 12:02pm

Why is it that he can't be talking about himself?

For example: We'll take John as the person who is in question.

"This man's father" - John's father
"is my father's son" - is John's father's son, who is John since John has no brothers or sisters.

Title: Re: Family Relations riddle
Post by franz ferdinand on Aug 30^th, 2002, 2:06pm

on 08/23/02 at 12:02:31, Rehan wrote:

Yes, and according to the puzzle, "This man's father" == "my father's son". So, by your reasoning, "John's father" == "John". This cannot be true.

It is simply impossible that the man be refering to himself or anyone other than his son. End of story.

Title: Re: Family Relations riddle
Post by Rune on Sep 30^th, 2002, 10:17pm

Well here you have:
"my Father's son" which can be substituted by "me" since he has no siblings. So the sentence translates to..
"But this man's Father is [me]"
Looking at this, "this man" translaters to "my son" so now you have:
"But [my son's] Father is [me]." But here's the thing. The subject of this sentence is not "this man" but rather, "this man's father." and looking at the first alteration of the sentence we can see that "But this man's Father is [me], therefore the subject of the sentence is the same [me] refered to on the second part of the sentence. Which is really himself.

Title: Re: Family Relations riddle
Post by Ravi on Oct 1^st, 2002, 5:15am

The wording is pretty ambiguous.

The correct answer is either a) his son or b) himself.

It all depends on how you choose to interpret the question. Are we supposed to identify who "this man" is or who "this man's father" is?

Title: Re: Family Relations riddle
Post by Rune on Oct 1^st, 2002, 12:51pm

"Speaker: "Brothers and Sisters, I have none. But this man's Father is my Father's son."

Who is the speaker talking about?"

The question clearly asks, who is the speaker talking ABOUT. Here you have two sentences.

The first one says "Brothers and Sisters, I have none." Reversing this to a more common form, you get I have no brothers or sisters. The subject is I. So in the first sentence he is talking about "I" or himself.

Second sentence he says "But this man's father is my Father's son." Again, "this man" is not the subject, so he cannot be talking about "this man" or his son. He is clearly talking about "this man's Father" or rather, himself. The wording is a bit confusing, but if you simplify it in the way I did in my first post it becomes kind of obvious that in both sentences the subject is himself.

Title: Re: Family Relations riddle
Post by James Fingas on Oct 1^st, 2002, 1:10pm

I think the original intent of the question was to ask "who is 'this man'".

The wording is ambiguous though, because it leaves open the following interpretation:

"Who is the subject (in the grammatical sense) of these sentences?"

Title: Re: Family Relations riddle
Post by Rune on Oct 1^st, 2002, 2:06pm

Aye, if the question were asking to identify "this man" then that would be the son but clearly it is not. It is asking for the subject of the sentences.

From dictionary.com on the word subject: "Grammar - The noun, noun phrase, or pronoun in a sentence or clause that denotes the doer of the action or what is described by the predicate."

then you have "But this man's father IS." The verb applies to the noun phrase "this man's Father" so that makes "this man's Father" what is being described.

I still don't see how there can be two answers to this =/

Title: Re: Family Relations riddle
Post by Jonathan_the_Red on Oct 1^st, 2002, 5:26pm

on 10/01/02 at 14:06:07, Rune wrote:

I don't see how there can be two answers either, I just disagree with you what the answer is.

"This man's vice president was Walter Mondale." Who am I talking about?

Title: Re: Family Relations riddle
Post by Rune on Oct 1^st, 2002, 7:19pm

The vice president of course, or Walter Mondale. An easy way to tell who you're talking about is to see who the verb applies to. For example, the verb here is "was." So ask your self, "Who was?" The answer would be, this man's vice president.

Title: Re: Family Relations riddle
Post by Rune on Oct 1^st, 2002, 7:25pm

The confusion seems to be with what the subject is, but you can easily see that "this man's" cannot possibly be the subject because in itself is incomplete. "This man" is not part of the sentence, its just assumed.

This man's Father is me
This man's Uncle is me
This man's doctor is me
This man's Professor is me

Are all these talking about "this man?" All of these are describing "This man's Father, This man's Uncle, This man's Doctor, etc.." therefore making those full phrases the subjects rather than just "This man"

Title: Re: Family Relations riddle
Post by Jeremy on Oct 2^nd, 2002, 6:06am

You guys are analyzing this WAY too much. It's supposed to be a clever little riddle that rhymes, so when someone says it they sound all sophisticated and clever (i've never really liked rhyming riddles because they normally sacrifice rhyme for meaning). It sounds confusing at first, but either the person who reads the riddle will either figure out the "father's son" trick and be happy with themselves, or be told the answer and say "oh now that's stupid". Either way good job people you've analyzed the riddle enough... and now you're starting to drive it into the ground. ;)

but i'de like to submit my own alternative answer.... i think
this man could also be talking abouthis daughter.

Title: Re: Family Relations riddle
Post by Jonathan_the_Red on Oct 2^nd, 2002, 10:00am

on 10/01/02 at 19:19:49, Rune wrote:

Okay, now who am I talking about?

This man's vice president was Walter Mondale. During his term, Tip O'Neill served as Speaker of the House. Today, many needy families would not have houses if it weren't for him. Kofi Annan of the United Nations has praised his abilities as a peacemaker.

If you answer "you're talking about Walter Mondale, Tip O'Neill, many needy families, and Kofi Annan" you have a very serious problem with English comprehension and you must have a lot of difficulty making yourself understood and/or understanding others. The subject of a sentence isn't necessarily its topic.

I'm sorry if I sound peeved, but I can't believe this is even an issue.

Title: Re: Family Relations riddle
Post by Rune on Oct 2^nd, 2002, 12:25pm

Heh don't get mad Im not trying to sound as if I know better, just that I really want to get the other side of it :P But your approach to it is incorrect (or at least in my view.) Here's why:

Go back to the original definition of what the subject is. This is from a dictionary so im not pulling it out of my ass ;)

"The noun, noun phrase, or pronoun in a sentence or clause that denotes the doer of the action or what is described by the predicate"

Then apply this to your passage:

"This man's vice president was Walter Mondale. During his term, Tip O'Neill served as Speaker of the House. Today, many needy families would not have houses if it weren't for him. Kofi Annan of the United Nations has praised his abilities as a peacemaker. "

Firs tsentence. This man's vice president was Walter Mondale. What is doing the action or being described? This man's vice president.

Second sentence. During his term, Tip O'Neill served as SPeaker of the House. Who is doing the action or being described? Tip O'Neil.

So yes, the PASSAGE is talking about Tip O'Neill. But each and every sentence in that passage is a standalone sentence that can be used somewhere else, so by your logic... If I were to alter yoru passage as so...

"This man's vice president was Walter Mondale. During his term, [Rune] served as Speaker of the House. Today, many needy families would not have houses if it weren't for him. Kofi Annan of the United Nations has praised his abilities as a peacemaker. "

Then take the first sentence and make it a standalone. "This man's vice president was Walter Mondale" Well how can this be.. the same sentence talking about both Rune and Tip O'Neill yet the words are exactly the same. Somethign is wrong here. So yes the passage itself is talking about Tip O'Neil, or This Man. But the sentences alone are not, they're talking about whatever teh subject is. In the two sentences in the riddle, however, you don't have a followup that goes on about someone else. It just ends with that sentence. The first sentence is about himself clearly. The second sentence in itself is also about himself due to subject definition. Nothing is there that would say that its about this man, unlike the passage you present.

Ok that might be a bit complicated so here's what i mean in short. Each one of the sentences in yoru passage is talking about something different. However, due to the way the passage is constructed, the passage itself is talking about Tip O'Neill. The riddle, however, does not. Another fun alteration of the passage would be...

"This man's vice president was Walter Mondale. During [Walter Mondale's] term, Tip O'Neil served as Speaker of the House. Today, many needy families would not have houses if it weren't for [Jonathan_the_Red]. [Rune] of the United Nations has praised [wu's] abilities as a peacemaker. "

What am i talking about now? As you see , the alteration of the passage has changed what you assumed all the pronouns (his he, etc) meant. That's just assumption though. It is a necessary assumption to make sense of language but nonetheless, there is no such passage provided in the riddle, so the only thing you have to go by is the sentence, and its single subject.

Title: Re: Family Relations riddle
Post by VinceFool on Oct 3^rd, 2002, 9:05am

vincentcote@yahooIt's amazing how such a simple sentence can be so confusing.

Just turn it around: "My father's son <= is => this man's father"

Doesnt't it make the sentence simple and obvious?

Hope it enlightens some of you.

Title: Re: Family Relations riddle
Post by Jonathan_the_Red on Oct 4^th, 2002, 11:02am

I'm really not in the mood to get bogged down in semantic arguments, so I'll just reiterate: The "subject" of a sentence and the "topic" of a sentence are not necessarily the same. (For the record, all of the illustrative sentences I used above had different subjects, but the topic of them all was Jimmy Carter.)

Consider the following two sentences:

I ate the sandwich.
The sandwich was eaten by me.

Apart from being written in different voices, these sentences are semantically identical. Yet they have different subjects. Are you seriously going to assert that they're about different things?

Title: Re: Family Relations riddle
Post by Joann D. on Feb 3^rd, 2003, 10:00pm

Speaker: "Brothers and Sisters, I have none. But this man's Father is my Father's son."
Who is the speaker talking about?

ANSWER: He is speaking of himself as he looks in the mirror. ::)

Title: Re: Family Relations riddle
Post by jwe8k on Apr 22^nd, 2003, 8:53am

I really don't understand how there is any confusion at all.

Speaker: "Brothers and Sisters, I have none. But this man's Father is my Father's son."

Think of it like Jeopardy. They tell you about someone. You have to ask who they're talking about.

But first, since we know that there are no siblings then "my Father's son" is the same as "I". So who are we asking about when we answer "This man's father is I?". The son, obviously.

Title: Re: Family Relations riddle
Post by Jigga on May 8^th, 2003, 12:07am

Aight Guys, After reading most of the comments I think it's really simple and everytime there is a riddle people say the wording is wrong or something. Here, nothing is wrong, it's as clear as water.

Imagine that he is talking to an audience of his son's marriage and his son is standing next to him (he is refering to his son as "this man"). So now when he says "This man's father(himself) is my father's son(himself)" - he is referring to himself.

Title: Re: Family Relations riddle
Post by mistysakura on May 8^th, 2003, 12:15am

my interpretation is that the riddle is asking who 'this man' is, since it's not clear enough wording.

Title: Re: Family Relations riddle
Post by Speaker on May 8^th, 2003, 11:18pm

Brothers and sisters I have none
But this man's father is my father's son

This man = son of the speaker.

This man cannot equal "the speaker himself"

To support my second claim, I submit that the line about the brothers and sisters is irrelevent IF the answer is "the speaker himself" And, that information in the body of a riddle must apply to the answer. The information may be presented in a misleading way, but it cannot be ignored completely.

So, supporters of the theory that the speaker is looking in a mirror or looking at a picture of himself, need to justify the first line. Is it just to mislead, or just to rhyme. Or, and this is the core of my argument, is it information that needs to be applied to the answer?

If the first line needs to be applied, then we need to determine in what direction it points us. To the answer? Or in this case, does it point us away from wrong answers that involve nephews and other siblings.

After all, you cannot eliminate half of a riddle.

That would be like

What has an eye
But cannot see
And has no brothers and sisters?

A needle. (Correct? you decide) ::)

Title: Re: Family Relations riddle
Post by Icarus on May 9^th, 2003, 9:27pm

[Another repetition of same old argument]
"Brothers and sisters I have none" ==> "my father's son" = me.
"This man's father is my father's son." ==> "This man's father" = me.
Therefore "This man" = my son.
[/repetition]
This is clear to anyone who doesn't get themselves mixed up in the logic. But this is not where the ambiguity they are refering to exists. What is ambiguous is the actual question asked:

"Who is the speaker talking about?"

By one interpretation, the speaker is talking about "this man", so the answer is: his son.

By another interpretation, the speaker is talking about "this man's father". The answer is: himself.

As for the mirror - there is no way that this sentence makes sense if he is looking in a mirror, even if he has brothers and sisters: brothers allow "this man" to be his nephew, but not himself.

"Looking at himself in a mirror" is the solution to a different variation of this puzzle. Since the variations sound a lot alike. and the other one is also common, people have been mistaking this puzzle for the other variation, and proclaiming the mirror answer they have heard before without examing to see that it does not fit this version.

Title: Re: Family Relations riddle
Post by britney on Oct 5^th, 2004, 5:19pm

:-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ ::) ::) ::) ;D ;D ;D ;) ;) ;) ;) :-[ :-[ :-[i think that the man is talking about himself :P :) ;) :D ;D >:( :( :o 8) ??? ::) :P :-X :-[ :-/ :-* :'(

Title: Re: Family Relations riddle
Post by The Deacon on Mar 2^nd, 2005, 1:05am

I think people are getting confused as to what this riddle is asking of us. I would assume we are trying to find the identity of "this man", although in the clue given we must first identify "this man's Father" and "my Father's son". My answer is that "this man" refers to the speaker's son.

I think a big problem is that people are assuming that the subject of the sentence is "this man", when in reality the subject is "this man's FATHER" (or simply "Father"). The words "this man's" are used like an adjective describing the subject "Father". Thus, "this man" cannot equal the speaker, because it would be saying that the speaker's father (this man's father) is equal to the son of the speaker's father (MY Father's son), which is himself. "My Father's son" cannot refer to the speaker's brother because he has none ("Brothers and Sisters I have none"). Thus, this statement is basically saying "I (the speaker) am me", which is a true statement. But we are not trying to identify the subject of the statement (which is the speaker), but rather we are trying to identify who "this man" is. Thus, although the subjects of the sentence are the speaker, the answer to the riddle is the speaker's son.

And to Jonathan_the_Red who made the argument that the "subject" and "topic" of a sentence are different and cannot be interchanged, this is true in your example of the sandwich. However, there is a difference because this riddle uses what is commonly called a "linking" verb, which includes the infinitive "to be" ("is" is the third person conjugation of this infinitive). In these cases, the "subject" and "topic" are basically equivalent and thus can technically be interchanged.

Title: Re: Family Relations riddle
Post by Grimbal on Mar 2^nd, 2005, 1:40am

George W's father was another George.

Who am I talking about?

Title: Re: Family Relations riddle
Post by Padzok on Mar 6^th, 2005, 5:39am

on 03/02/05 at 01:40:45, Grimbal wrote:

George W's father was another George.

Who am I talking about?

Ok, I'll bite. 8)

You are talking about 2 people, both called George, one being the father of the other.

Was that your point? ie that it makes no sense to say that your first line is only about one individual? Or have I missed the point?

Who do you think you are talking about? :-/

Title: Re: Family Relations riddle
Post by Grimbal on Mar 6^th, 2005, 6:49am

The point is: In the problem.
"Speaker: "Brothers and Sisters, I have none. But this man's Father is my Father's son."
Who is the speaker talking about?"

The speaker is speaking not only of "this man", but also of this man's father who happens to be the speaker's father's son.

Title: Re: Family Relations riddle
Post by Padzok on Mar 7^th, 2005, 12:19pm

on 03/06/05 at 06:49:40, Grimbal wrote:

Mmm.

Perhaps it would have been simpler if he'd just said, "Thaaat's my boy!!!!"

Title: Re: Family Relations riddle
Post by mUNISH on Jun 6^th, 2005, 11:40pm

I have none means ...he has no sons ...

If
the man he is talking about is himself.That is not possible..bcoz the man would be his own son.

By my point of view the man is talking about his brothers son..

Title: Re: Family Relations riddle
Post by MUNISH on Jun 7^th, 2005, 6:39am

He says Brothers and Sisters, I have None..Means

he has no brothers and sisters..

so he is talking about his son..

Title: Re: Family Relations riddle
Post by River_Phoenix on Jun 7^th, 2005, 9:22pm

Speaker: "Brothers and Sisters, I have none. But this man's Father is my Father's son."

Who is the speaker talking about?

Because Brothers, Sisters, and Father are all capitalized, I have to assume that they are most likely talking about the religious versions.

He is addressing the Brothers and Sisters, and saying that he has none (pudding, of course).

This man refers to Jesus, so this man's Father is God.

So the speaker's father's son is God.

Therefore the speaker is God, and his father is the father of God, and therefore came before god. A contradiction.

Therefore the question is incorrect, and any answer can satisfy a false question.

The speaker is talking about Michael Jackson.

QED

Title: Re: Family Relations riddle
Post by KillerBunnies on Aug 4^th, 2005, 9:48pm

The Father is talking to his son. He is talking to his son about himself. The fact that he does mention himself doesn't not mean he is talking to himself about himself, people! He is talking to his son about his son's father, being his fathers son. Which IS himself. but doesn't change the fact that he is saying this to his son.

Anyway you look at it. The Father that does not have any brothers or sisters is talking to his son about himself. He cannot be talking to himself about himself. He is talking to his son about himself. Learn how to interpet grammar people. Jeez!

Title: Re: Family Relations riddle
Post by BNC on Aug 5^th, 2005, 7:30am

on 08/04/05 at 21:48:33, KillerBunnies wrote:

And where do you see he's talking TO his son? Maybe he's talking to someone else, pointingto his son as "this man"?
Jeez!

Title: Re: Family Relations riddle
Post by str2004 on Aug 14^th, 2005, 2:06am

the answer is the speakers son 8)

Title: Re: Family Relations riddle
Post by elaukli on Mar 21^st, 2013, 8:01am

He Is Talking About Himself or his son depending on how you view who he is talking about

Speaker: "Brothers and Sisters, I have none. But this man's(speakers son) Father(speaker) is my Father's(speakers father) son(Speaker)."

Who is the speaker talking about?

Title: Re: Family Relations riddle
Post by riddler358 on Jun 10^th, 2013, 9:40am

I'd like to share with you this riddle's most popular version in my country

Here is my best effort translation:
At a painting exhibition some man was looking at a portrait.
Someone asked him: who's portrait are you looking at?
Man replied: I don't have brothers, nor sisters, but father of the man on the painting is son of my father.
Who's portrait was this painting enthusiast looking at?

Clearly this version is asking about "this man".

And about discussion here - for me phrasing of this riddle is not precise, someone mentioned situation where guy is talking to son's family and his son is standing next to him, then obviously it would be about himself. But imagining situation where guy is just telling exact same words to someone one-on-one it seems rather that the question is about "this man".