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        general >> chinese >> Great Firewall of China
        
(Message started by: THUDandBLUNDER on Dec 17^th, 2004, 3:51am)

Title: Great Firewall of China
Post by THUDandBLUNDER on Dec 17^th, 2004, 3:51am

One of the more irritating things about living in China is the insidious censorship. To give but a few examples, Time magazine is blocked, the BBC is blocked, and sometimes even Hong Kong TV is blocked. But what really bugs me is that Google Groups is also blocked! However, the Chinese people are pretty creative in ways (http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn6707) of circumventing these restrictions on their freedom of information and self-expression.

Title: Re: Great Firewall of China
Post by John_Gaughan on Dec 17^th, 2004, 8:10am

I think China has tremendous potential to be a major world superpower if only they would start treating their citizens with respect and come out of their shell. While they are not as bad as North Korea, they do have issues.

With as many people as they have, they could tap into a huge labor market. They already produce many manufactured goods (check the "made in..." tags at Wal-Mart), now all they need is worker's rights such as increased pay and benefits, a 40 hour workweek, etc. Not only that, but there are many intelligent Chinese people. Besides manufacturing, they can (and I think will) drive the world IT market. Already they are working with several other Southeast Asian countries to develop their own Linux distribution to get rid of proprietary U.S. technology (Windows).

If the Chinese government stopped trying to rule with an iron fist and instead rode the free market wave, they might be surprised at what they can accomplish. Of course they want control, but what they fail to realize is that government is always corrupt. Democracy and Capitalism do not mean relinquishing control to the people. Look at the U.S. government. Democracy my ass, I just voted last month in a oligarchical election. Maybe it takes a little more work to maintain control, but as the Rockefellers, Kennedies, and Bushes have shown, it is quite possible not only to have a political career, but to create a dynasty of family rule despite being elected by the people.

Title: Re: Great Firewall of China
Post by THUDandBLUNDER on Dec 17^th, 2004, 10:32am

Quote:

now all they need is worker's rights such as increased pay and benefits, a 40 hour workweek, etc.

Well, at present there is no chance that the authorities will allow trades unions, for the same reason that they stomped on the Falun Gong movement so ruthlessly - the Chinese Communist Party will not tolerate anything that is in danger of becoming a rival power base. Hence organised religions are also strictly controlled. (But, given the number of over-zealous Christian proselytizers to be found in this supposedly heathen wasteland - a classic case of the blind leading the blind - perhaps this is not a bad idea.) By the way, when soldiers here joined the army they swore allegiance not to China or its head of state, but to the Chinese Communist Party. (Imagine signing up for the Marines and swearing allegiance to the GOP!)

Quote:

Already they are working with several other Southeast Asian countries to develop their own Linux distribution to get rid of proprietary U.S. technology (Windows).

Proprietary? Just about every commercially available piece of software that is produced in the West can be bought here for next to nothing. For example, according to a Hong Kong computer magazine, the latest version of AutoCAD costs roughly HK$30000 (about US$5000). Yet I can buy a pirated copy here for just 50 cents! The same with DVDs - I have about 400, none of which cost me more than a buck!

Quote:

If the Chinese government stopped trying to rule with an iron fist and instead rode the free market wave, they might be surprised at what they can accomplish.

Their 'surprise' has been giving way to accomplishments for quite some time. According to some reports, next year they are due to overtake the UK as the world's fourth largest economy. A favourite description of the US by its detractors is 'the world's policeman', but just wait until China becomes the #1 economic superpower. Besides being totally corrupt, its leaders (unlike ours) have never been answerable to anybody but their immediate bosses and are sure to throw their political weight around just as carelessly, and for the same reasons, as a nouveau riche pleb (and there are plenty here) is apt to brag and boast about his new-found wealth. In fact, I'm sure there are already several think-tanks in the US whose sole purpose is to work out exactly what to do about the 'China Problem'.

On the other hand, one must remember that China is a country that for the last 100 years and more has been visited by great chaos and turmoil. Maintaining stability is the #1 priority of the leadership and standards that naturally apply to the West do not automatically apply to a country with 1.3 billion people, 70% of whom are uneducated and who would be easily swayed this-way-and-that by silver-tongued politicians such as Clinton or Blair, were multi-party elections to be allowed. What is more, imagine that you are a powerful Chinese leader - what reason could you possibly have to want political change when you (and, perhaps more importantly, your family) enjoy such a comfortable lifestyle?

Title: Re: Great Firewall of China
Post by John_Gaughan on Dec 18^th, 2004, 11:29am

on 12/17/04 at 10:32:24, THUDandBLUNDER wrote:

By the way, when soldiers here joined the army they swore allegiance not to China or its head of state, but to the Chinese Communist Party. (Imagine signing up for the Marines and swearing allegiance to the GOP!)

I did not know that. That is screwed up. Then again, there really is only one political party in China.

Quote:

Proprietary? Just about every commercially available piece of software that is produced in the West can be bought here for next to nothing.

I think the issue is not so much cost but control. By being at the whim of a U.S. company, they lose control and they voice the same concerns that some U.S. citizens voice -- does Microsoft have backdoors into their software? Can they hack into my computer without me knowing? With China, this is not just about someone spying on my online banking, but national security. With OSS, especially home-grown projects, they control what they use. They get to audit the code.

Quote:

Their 'surprise' has been giving way to accomplishments for quite some time. According to some reports, next year they are due to overtake the UK as the world's fourth largest economy.

Measured how? GDP? Stock market volume? Sales?

Quote:

A favourite description of the US by its detractors is 'the world's policeman', but just wait until China becomes the #1 economic superpower.

I am not sure that China would move away from isolationism. They certainly care about their neighbors such as Taiwan and Kim Jong Il, but they tend to take a lazy attitude toward everything else -- you leave me alone, I leave you alone.

Quote:

In fact, I'm sure there are already several think-tanks in the US whose sole purpose is to work out exactly what to do about the 'China Problem'.

Yes. Think tanks, DOD policy committees, Congressional committees, etc. In fact there is so much bureaucracy in the United States that every day it gives birth to some new committee or organization that micromanages something useless, then propogates and regulates something else. The pork is multiplying :)

Quote:

On the other hand, one must remember that China is a country that for the last 100 years and more has been visited by great chaos and turmoil.

I had a history teacher in high school that said China would return to having emperors eventually. He said their history was a cycle: a few hundred years of peaceful rule, then 50-100 years of some bad guy who ran it into the ground. Then someone else would rebuild. He said the communist movement is just a downcycle, eventually it will have a benevolent emperor again.

Quote:

What is more, imagine that you are a powerful Chinese leader - what reason could you possibly have to want political change when you (and, perhaps more importantly, your family) enjoy such a comfortable lifestyle?

Like I said in my last post, the capitalist/democratic dynasties live just as comfortable if not more so. The United States is a plutocracy/oligarchy. If China converted to a Western socioeconomic system, the same thing would happen: its leaders would be rich and powerful, except they would have a larger ring of good old boys to support them.

Title: Re: Great Firewall of China
Post by sheep on Oct 7^th, 2005, 7:08pm

well, China's population does not allow for a really democratic government. well, it does, but the change would have to be very very gradual. look at the US. our nation is was so divided in the elections and judicial court nominations and all that crap think about that in china! with all those people! a slight disruptance in normalness would cause panic. The Chinese government is especially susceptible to that because of its responsibility to govern all those people. If they allowed for unions, the communist government would be... well... nonexistant. it cant exist because it depends on making people do stuff. Im really disapointed in China's aproach in becoming "modernized" tho. The majority of the population is forgotten. What about all those peasants out there? capitalism would only encourage those disparities.

Firewall is neccesary to control the population. seriously, can you think of a better way to make everyone think the same way as you do so they dont decide to kill you? and if you get killed, then there's gonna be chaos in China and thats not good.

but BBC and Google Groups! :o :'(
thats my LIFE! H2G2!

Title: Re: Great Firewall of China
Post by liqingjian on Dec 5^th, 2005, 7:30pm

Why Americans thought we Chinese are living in fear while the fact is never. Mao Zedong(chairman mao) will be ellected as president if democratic ellection is held in China and Mao Zedong is still alive. Most peasant in China is missing Mao Zedong, the population of peasant is 800,000,000.
Americans will not accept the result again, I thought and it is true, and the US government will say again that this ellection is unfair and then provoke the millionaires to refuse to accept the result. And then something similar with things happened in some Eastern Europe will happened in China and then a speaker of western countries will be in power. And then China become a democratic country but no power to say no to the f*cking evil western countries. Communist party will cricised by western country only because it is a communist party, not only in china but some democratic country in latin america. You westerner are brainwashed by the government.

Title: Re: Great Firewall of China
Post by towr on Dec 6^th, 2005, 3:38am

on 12/05/05 at 19:30:44, liqingjian wrote:

You westerner are brainwashed by the government.

And you of course are not. ::)
Besides, everyone knows it's not the government, but the media (mostly TV) that brainwashes us. ;D

Title: Re: Great Firewall of China
Post by RobHicks on Jun 23^rd, 2008, 5:53am

"Communist party will cricised by western country only because it is a communist party..."

China is not a communist country. It is as far removed, politically, from communism as it is possible to be.

Everything in China revolves around self-centred capitalism - make and spend as much money as possible and to hell with those who can't get any. There is no healthcare or education without money, there is no care for the elderly without money. If you don't have money in China, you perish, and nobody else will care.

The only communist thing in China is the flag.

China maintains that it is 'communist' for one reason only - to 'justify' its one party dictatorship and to distance itself from the West, that it feels might undermine that dictatorship. Most Chinese people know this, but as long they're allowed to make money and stuff their faces with free food three times a day they don't care.

Title: Re: Great Firewall of China
Post by towr on Jun 23^rd, 2008, 6:43am

I'd make a comment about dragging up a three-year old thread, but there's only 10 threads in all in this subforum; it can use any activity it gets :P

on 06/23/08 at 05:53:57, RobHicks wrote:

China is not a communist country. It is as far removed, politically, from communism as it is possible to be.

That's a bit overstated; they could remove themselves further from communism by changing their flag, and by abandoning their one party dictatorship; and that's just the two you mentioned yourself.

Title: Re: Great Firewall of China
Post by ThudanBlunder on May 20^th, 2010, 8:52am

on 06/23/08 at 05:53:57, RobHicks wrote:

[i]
Everything in China revolves around self-centred capitalism - make and spend as much money as possible and to hell with those who can't get any. There is no healthcare or education without money, there is no care for the elderly without money. If you don't have money in China, you perish, and nobody else will care.

Substitute USA, a country where the richest and often the most powerful people become livid with indignation at the very idea that everybody is entitled to be healthy, and the above passage makes even more sense.

Title: Re: Great Firewall of China
Post by johnmarry on Aug 17^th, 2011, 2:04am

Yeah!
absolutely right!!!!

Title: Re: Great Firewall of China
Post by erica on Jan 28^th, 2014, 9:10pm

Very interesting conversation.

I think each of the countries that have earned respect and have created benchmarks today are the ones who have respected talent and knowledge. only such countries will keep rising, rest of the countries will keep themselves busy with issues that are actually not worth discussing and investing time/money.