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        general >> chinese >> Chinese/Japanese characters
        
(Message started by: Speaker on Apr 26^th, 2004, 2:04am)

Title: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by Speaker on Apr 26^th, 2004, 2:04am

I look at Kanji all day long. So, figure that some good ought to come of it. Anyway, the idea I had was that a lot of Japanese words are now common in English, and these words also have pictographic characters.

So, if you already know the word, then the job is already half done, all you need to do is remember the kanji (this is the term used in Japanese, so even though we are in the Chinese section, I will use the Japanese term).

I figured that if I can put up a kanji then people can try to guess the reading. It will be a word borrowed from Japanese that is in common use, so everyone should know it. And, if people do not want to guess, then I can just give away the answer or hints or something.

Also, if I put Japanese characters in the post, can everybody read them?

Well, here is the first. Let me know if you can see it, and also if you know the common English word that it represents.

é½
ŽõŽi

These both mean the same thing.

Edit/ Well, even I cannot see them after posting. Is there a way that we can use other languages on the forum?

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by towr on Apr 26^th, 2004, 2:29am

on 04/26/04 at 02:04:45, Speaker wrote:

Edit/ Well, even I cannot see them after posting. Is there a way that we can use other languages on the forum?

Only if you use images. The characterset one can read depends on the browser, not the forum (or website in general).
There are places where you can download the needed updates, but you can hardly expect everyone to do that, so images are probably a better way..

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by Speaker on Apr 26^th, 2004, 10:35pm

The problem cannot be with my browser, because I can see Japanese characters very easily. When I typed in my post I could see them. But, after posting, they turned into goop. :'(

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by towr on Apr 26^th, 2004, 11:41pm

An edit box/textarea is not a webpage.. I'm pretty sure it behaves much like any other edit box/textarea in any other program on your computer..

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by Speaker on Apr 27^th, 2004, 12:18am

Okay, I guess I understand that. But, I can look at kanji on other web pages.

I guess if I want to do this I need to make images of kanji....

How do I do that? I will try to find out. But, if there is an easy way, please tell me.

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by Icarus on Apr 27^th, 2004, 5:16pm

The text box does not allow unicode character sets. We had explored this as a way to get symbolry before William was so kind as to add it. YaBB uses a reduced form of html (thus the square brackets for tags instead of the < >). It does this on purpose because there are security problems with allowing people to enter html based submissions. Part of this includes the disabling of interpretation of various unicode character sets (I have no idea why). Trying to introduce unicode characters results in a fragmentation and translation of the fragments into an extended ASCII character set. That is what you are seeing.

When you entered the character in the text box, YaBB had not yet got it's hands on it. Your browser correctly interpreted the code behind the character, so you saw what you wanted. When you posted, though, YaBB did its bit, and broke up the coding into what you see now. Sorry, but there is no way I know of to get by this censor. But even if you did, only those who have downloaded the Japanese character set would be able to see it, just as towr as said.

One basic way to create an image: display the character in any application that will (including your browser in the text window) and take a screen shot (ctrl+PrtScn), open up a picture editor - even MS paint is adequate for this - and paste your screen shot into it. Clip out and save the portion showing your character to a file (please use a fast loading format such as gif or png rather than saving it as a bitmap).

Then when you post, browse for the file with the browse button below the text entry box. The file will be copied into William's site at Berkeley.

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by Speaker on Apr 27^th, 2004, 5:43pm

Thanks Icarus. I will try it as soon as I have time today.
:)

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by Speaker on Apr 27^th, 2004, 6:56pm

Okay, here is the first. I hope it works.

This is a kanji that you might see on the street in any large city in the west. The left side means fish, and the right side means finger (well, pretty much finger anyway). So, with that information, you can now read Japanese.

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by John_Gaughan on Apr 27^th, 2004, 7:29pm

on 04/27/04 at 17:16:16, Icarus wrote:

Unicode, specifically the UTF variations, is a potential security risk in URLs and POST data. IIS has a few Unicode exploits, and the rest are more social engineering. Googling turned up nothing useful, but I read an article or two a few months ago that described in detail what these risks are.

One issue that stands out in my memory is that it is possible to write links in the Cyrillic part of the Unicode set that are very difficult for humans to tell are not in the lower ASCII section of the set but behave differently to the server. For example, a ? or & that is not a question mark or ampersand. This can fool people into clicking on bad URLs. While the risk is probably not all that great in this forum, it is still there and black hats can be very creative.

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by Speaker on Apr 27^th, 2004, 7:34pm

Thanks John. Now, how about a little more kanji fun. Since this is the Chinese section, here is another. I am pretty sure that it is common in Chinese, it is not very common in Japanese, but is in the dictionaries. And, of course it is a common word in English, as is the one above.

Think of Gates, or Murdoch or some other wealthy guy.

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by Speaker on May 7^th, 2004, 6:39pm

Well, just in case anybody is interested.

The first one is of course "SUSHI" and the second, which is more common in Chinese is "Tycoon."

Here is another. Think of Tom Cruise...

The left side means person, and the right side means temple, which might be confusing if you think that people at temples are all peaceful and stuff...

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by Icarus on May 7^th, 2004, 7:38pm

Obviously this is "samarai"!

You know, Speaker, I bet that I could figure the next one out even without your discriptions of what the parts are.

(At least, I can if you keep using the same naming conventions for your gif files! ;))

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by Speaker on May 7^th, 2004, 7:46pm

Yes, you are correct. Try this one. There are two sets of characters. They mean the same thing. One is the traditional term, and the other it the official one.

I guess a little more hinting would make it more fair. It is a place name....

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by Icarus on May 7^th, 2004, 8:38pm

Gee, does this mean there is someplace in Japan called "try again"? No? Shucks! :( The problem with pictographic characters is that they are pictures that have been "simplified". Unless you are familiar with the principles by which the simplification was made, you cannot figure out what the picture is supposed to be. With the appropriate cultural exposure to these sorts of pictures, perhaps a box with a vertical slash through it suggests something to you. Alas, for someone such as I, who has had practically no exposure to these conventions, the best it suggests is some one was really upset with a box!

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by Speaker on May 7^th, 2004, 9:06pm

Yeah, I will return to my old naming system.
The box and slash means center or middle, and the next one, a box with a king (I have to edit this. It is not a king, it is a ball, or maybe a jewel. The king is the same except without the little mark in the bottom right.) in it means country. So, we have center country. Or, China. The long one means The People's Republic of China.

Okay, I need to adjust my method of selection. Back to the old drawing board.

Anyway, here is one that I have ready. It is the name of a big city in China, it also means kidnapped.

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by Speaker on May 7^th, 2004, 9:30pm

Okay, back to the original plan. This is a common word in English. The left character means empty, and the right one means hand. Does it look like a hand?
So, <Empty-Hand>.

The left one also means sky, and is used for airplanes and airports.

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by THUDandBLUNDER on May 8^th, 2004, 5:16am

I will stick my neck out and say
shanghai.gif says 'Shanghai'
and
karate.gif says 'karate'.
;)

try_again.gif says 'China' followed by 'The People's Republic of China'.

Quote:

Obviously this is "samarai"!

Define 'samarai'.
;)

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by Icarus on May 8^th, 2004, 7:06am

on 05/07/04 at 21:06:49, Speaker wrote:

Yeah, I will return to my old naming system.

Why? There is nothing to figure out if the answer is right there. My bemoans about unfamiliarity with Kanji conventions doesn't mean I want the answer handed to me! However, your descriptions of what the elements represent are a needed clue for those of us who are ignorant.

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by THUDandBLUNDER on May 8^th, 2004, 11:40am

Quote:

My bemoans about unfamiliarity with Kanji conventions doesn't mean I want the answer handed to me!

Sorry to intrude a trivial quibble about the English language into this esoteric discussion of the confabulated collocations of Far Eastern languages, but is 'My bemoans' the subject of the above sentence?

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by Icarus on May 8^th, 2004, 3:33pm

Oi vey! Now you're bemoaning my bemoanings! How I bemoan when that happens! :(

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by Speaker on May 9^th, 2004, 6:11pm

Okay, further adjustment.

Not turtles, and their DNA is intact. But, quiet.

The samurai are the warrior class of old time Japan. They ruled (or were in control anyway) until around 1870 or so when Japan entered the Meiji restoration and started moving towards a democracy based on militarism. As opposed to feudalism.

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by BNC on May 9^th, 2004, 10:35pm

Ninja?

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by Speaker on May 9^th, 2004, 10:41pm

Exactly right.

The one on the left means stealth, and the one on the right means person.

The kanji on the left is made of an upper part (sword) and a lower part (heart). (It also means to endure, but that meaning is not present in ninja.).

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by Speaker on May 9^th, 2004, 11:11pm

Here is a new one. It has two parts. The one on the left means weak or soft. The one on the right means way or road, and it is pronunced.... Doh! No hints...

Everyone can use this in August.

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by BNC on May 10^th, 2004, 12:17am

Judo?

{studied it for a short (very short) while back when I was a kid. From what I saw in mature students, isn't very "soft" -- but I guess it's "softer" than, say, Karate. And, offcourse, it's a Japanese word used in English.}

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by Speaker on May 10^th, 2004, 12:47am

Correct again. True, not so soft when actually practiced, but softer than the open hand or nunchucks or throwing stars...

The doh part is the same one for all the doh words in Japanese, more on those later.

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by Speaker on May 10^th, 2004, 12:58am

Here is another, like the one before, but applying a little more technique. The one on the right means technique. So, what is it?

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by BNC on May 10^th, 2004, 1:39am

Hmm... could probably mean a lot of martial arts...

I'll take a guess.

The first part the same... Maybe Jujuitsu (spelling?)? I don't even know what's the difference between Judo and JuJuitsu, but heck...

[e]What do August and Judo have in common??[/e]

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by Speaker on May 10^th, 2004, 1:46am

Correct again. The spelling is also variable here in the land of the Chrysanthemum Throne. Either Jujutsu or Jujitsu (but not Jujuitsu, but close).

This one is the art of unarmed combat.
Judo is more involved with using levarage and moving in circles around a pivot point.
Karate uses weapons. (These are all kind of my own interpretation).

August is the Olympics and Judo is a sport that Japan expects to win some heavy metal in.

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by Speaker on May 10^th, 2004, 7:07pm

This time I have a double. The pair on the left and the pair on the right form two well known words in English.

The pair on left:
The one on the left means god, as in the Shinto gods.
The one on the right is the same in both pairs.

The pair on the right: The root of this pair actually comes from Arabic and Greek, then to China and finally to Japan.
The one on the left means tower or height (and a lot of other meanings that do not apply).
The one on the right is of course the same, and is the give-a-way.

The highlighted character can be pronounced in two different ways, both are represented here. This variation in pronunciation of the same character is commonly given as one reason that makes Japanese difficult to master.

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by BNC on May 11^th, 2004, 2:15pm

I dare say that god-XXX and tower-XXX are not much of a clue...

However, given the name of the gif file, I guess one of them is typhoon / huricane?

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by Icarus on May 11^th, 2004, 4:26pm

So the left is Kamikazi, and the right is 'Typhoon' (wasn't sure of that one until I looked up its etymology in English, and it also came to English from Greek & Arabic through China).

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by Speaker on May 11^th, 2004, 5:46pm

Correct again. Typhoon is pronounced Taifu in Japan. So, the character for wind is kaze and fu.

Now, I have another set of characters with different sounds. In this case the same two characters are used, and they have the same meaning, but their pronunciation is different. The characters are just reversed, and this changes the pronunciation.

Also, both are known in English, one is fairly common, and the other is in Websters dictionary, and is known to some.

You can see that the yellow character has the sword or knife character which appeared earlier in the ninja kanji. So it means something that involves blades.
If I give a hint to the other one it will be too obvious. Just remember it hurts.

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by BNC on May 11^th, 2004, 10:30pm

Harakiri?

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by Speaker on May 11^th, 2004, 10:40pm

Yes, the one on the left is harakiri. The one on the right is seppuku. They both mean to commit ritual suicide by slicing open the abdomen. (Abdomen that is the meaning of the more complicated kanji.) Harakiri is well known in English, and seppuku can be found in most large dictionaries.

So, for the next act, something completely delicious. This one came from Portugal, then Japan, and now it is know throughout the world. The characters here do not have any particular meaning that I know of, they were just used to write the foreign word. Each character has one syllable, three, just like the English.

Well, here are some more hints. The first of the three means heaven, and is pronounced TEN. However, because there is very little differentiation between M and N sounds when they come at the end of a syllable in Japanese. The different sounds do exist, but are treated as being the same. The other kanji are pretty obscure and do not contribute to the meaning of the word.

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by Speaker on May 13^th, 2004, 5:37pm

Well, so far we have had words that probably everybody knows, and everybody also knows that they are derived from Japanese words. But, I imagine that it was news to discover that "typhoon" game from Arabic. Also, that the other word meaning a delicious food that begins with TEM purabably will be answered pretty soon. If anybody is still reading.

So, know I have two words that have been in American English for such a long time that people do not recognize them as Japanese. The first one means a leader or boss of a small or medium sized group. I figure it was introduced to US English with the early Japanese immigrants in the 19th century. Is it used in the UK or OZ?

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by Speaker on May 13^th, 2004, 7:16pm

Well, further hints for the above kanji pair. The one on the right is pronounced CHO, and is used for lots of words like manager or president (of a company) or principal of a school.
So, with that the whole word should be forthcoming. Think about a cowboy using it. And, if you have given any thought to its etymology you probably thought it was Spanish, but it is Japanese.

Now, the second of the words means a little bit, or a small amount. When I first heard it here in Japan and figured out that it was a borrowed word (from Japanese to English) I was surprised. I think it is more common in the West US. And, I remember seeing it in a TV commercial for Levis Jeans. These jeans were marketed to the mature male and offered a little more room. (Do you know the one about the cheap hotel...)

Okay, this kanji is followed by a hiragana. Hiragana is one of the alphabets used in Japanese. Depending on who is counting there might be four (4) alphabets used in Japanese. So, any guesses.

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by BNC on May 13^th, 2004, 9:32pm

on 05/11/04 at 22:40:35, Speaker wrote:

Y
Well, here are some more hints. The first of the three means heaven, and is pronounced TEN. However, because there is very little differentiation between M and N sounds when they come at the end of a syllable in Japanese. The different sounds do exist, but are treated as being the same. The other kanji are pretty obscure and do not contribute to the meaning of the word.

Tempura?

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by BNC on May 13^th, 2004, 9:35pm

on 05/13/04 at 19:16:52, Speaker wrote:

Well, further hints for the above kanji pair. The one on the right is pronounced CHO, and is used for lots of words like manager or president (of a company) or principal of a school.

Wild guess: Macho !?

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by Speaker on May 13^th, 2004, 9:41pm

Your are correct on Tempura.
This term comes from Portuguese <têmporas> which as far as I can tell means "spice" or "cooking" or "warm (as in the temperature of the air)". I was sure it meant hot, as in be careful when you pick up the fried vegatables, they are very "têmporas" which would give us "tempura." I can still hold out for hot, but my dictionary has that air disclaimer.
So, where is Pietro KC? Anybody from Brazil out there?

But, not on Macho. This term is often preceded by "head".

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by Eigenray on May 13^th, 2004, 9:56pm

The Japanese fonts display properly if you set your browser to use Shift_JIS encoding. If you're using Windows, you may have to install Japanese support (under Control Panel->Regional Options or some such), but that shouldn't take more than inserting the OS CD and rebooting.
[edit -- well, I know I can read Speaker's, but I can't figure out how to post mine correctly.
Okay, I got one of them to work, not sure how...
I give up. If I set my browser to Shift_JIS, I can read the kanji Speaker wrote in his first post, as well as the hiragana for tenpura I wrote below. But for some reason, the others keep turning into html codes.]

I guessed the answers for "yummy" (‚Ä‚ñ‚Õ‚ç, to spoil it only for people who know hiragana); and "the boss" ([hide]hanchou[/hide]) and then checked them using Jim Breen's WWWJDIC (http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/wwwjdic.html).
:[hide]sukoshi[/hide]: I recognized right away because it comes up really early in Pimsleur, but I had to check a dictionary because I didn't actually recognize it as an English word.

I must mention Slime Forest Adventure (http://lrnj.com/) as an excellent game for learning kanji (the meanings of over a thousand now, no pronounciations yet though), with decent explanations/mnemonics for each. Unfortunately, you have to memorize all the kana first before it'll give you any kanji, which are certainly a lot more interesting and easier to learn.

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by Speaker on May 13^th, 2004, 10:06pm

Hello Eigenray.

I guess you know the answers, but I can only see strings of numbers. Are those JIS codes or something. Or is my browser just unable to read your kanji. Which, I cannot figure out, because I am on a Japanese OS. And, I can read any Japanese site I care to open. So, why not here.

Anyway, very busy today.

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by Three Hands on May 14^th, 2004, 1:20am

Honcho? OK, Eigenray kind of got there first, but he used a different spelling from the standard English...

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by Speaker on May 14^th, 2004, 6:00pm

Right, Eigenray used the romanized version. He converted each of the Japanese sounds into roman text. But, and maybe this is interesting, they are pronounced the same. In US English we pronounce the HO in "Honcho" as HA as in "ha ha ha :D.

For instance, if you drive a Honda in the US, you call it a ha ha ha - nda "Handa". But, in Japan we call them Hone-da.

He also spelled the last syllable "chou" which indicates that it is an extended vowel (usually called long or short, but not to be confused with long and short vowels in English). In Japanese it indicates how long the vowel is voiced.

He also spelled his other answer this way, so it is hard to recognize it as English. The English spelling is hidden here [hide]skosh[/hide].

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by Speaker on May 14^th, 2004, 7:41pm

This is a popular health food. Not much flavor, but lots of protein. ;)

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by BNC on May 15^th, 2004, 12:23am

Got'a be Tofu.

Any meaning to the characters?

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by Speaker on May 16^th, 2004, 5:18pm

Yes, correct again. The kanji on the left means bean, "mame". The kanji on the right means to rot or to spoil or to ferment. However, for tofu, the beans are not fermented. The beans are boiled and the solids are extracted or allowed to settle out, which leaves curds and whey. Miss Muffet never had it so good. ::)

Natto, a different soy based food is made from fermented soy beans. The beans turn a golden brown and are covered with stringy sticky goo. (This goo consists of the bacteria, I think). It has a strong nutty smell. The smell is strong enough that many people cannot eat it. Think of blue cheese or limburger cheese. So, this fermented bean food uses the kanji for bean (of course) and another that means "obtain" or "reap" or "store" or "be settled".

So, the meanings seem to be reversed. And, I have heard that a long long time ago in a country far far away, some scribe reversed them by accident, and they have stayed that way ever since. (I do not have any concrete base for this story, just something I heard.) Natto is the kanji below.

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by Speaker on May 17^th, 2004, 5:32pm

Here is another in the bean series. I have heard that they have become popular in the US. When I first tried them in Japan with a cold beer, I was skeptical. Afterall, who eats green beens with beer. But, after trying it, I was hooked (on the beans, I had already been hooked on beer long before trying the beans).

So, the right one means bean of course, and in this pair is pronounced mame (ma may).

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by Speaker on May 24^th, 2004, 8:09pm

This one is interesting because the kanji on the left is unusual, and it is not uncommon to find it spelled out because it is difficult, and it is not one of the kanji taught in the schools. This means that it does not appear on the official list of 1006 essential kanji. (Although you need to know at least twice this to make it into university.)

And, it is a common item that everybody has around the house. It is pronounced "Sho-yu" in Japan. And, people buy it by the half gallon.

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by Three Hands on May 25^th, 2004, 3:38am

I would guess at Soy sauce. Or, at least, that seems to be what the gif file guessed it to be...

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by Speaker on May 26^th, 2004, 2:13am

Say, maybe I just had my post disappear. I am sure that I put this one up about 4 hours ago.

Any way. The kanji on the left means stone or rock, and is pronounced SEKI or ISHI. The one on the right is either YU as above or ABURA. Together in this pair they are SEKIYU.

Not used in English, but it has the YU from SHOYU.

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by Icarus on May 26^th, 2004, 7:43pm

"Texas Tea"

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by Speaker on May 26^th, 2004, 8:06pm

Yes.
Now, what might you put these dead dinosaurs into.

The founder of this company was born in 1894, and started his company in the 1930s.
The kanji pair on the right are his name. The left side of the pair means abundent, or plentiful. The one on the right means field (like a rice paddy) with four sections of the field.

The three characters on the left are the name of the company in katakana. This is the way the company spells it. The two terms are pronounced almost the same.

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by Chinaman on Feb 8^th, 2005, 8:56pm

toyota

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by Speaker on Jun 1^st, 2005, 5:49pm

Yes. Sorry for the delay. I did not get the reply mail. But, I will fix that.

;D

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by Speaker on Jun 1^st, 2005, 6:05pm

Okay, here is another kanji. Although I have been away for more than a year, I will continue in the same vein as before.

The left side kanji is the first part of Nippon (NI). The second half means to produce or give birth.

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by Speaker on Jun 1^st, 2005, 6:47pm

Here is another in the Industiral Series.
The first kanji (on the left) is the second part of Nippon (PON, HON).

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by Speaker on Jun 1^st, 2005, 6:54pm

Okay, time for a new series. This will be the Home Series, or things you might find around the house.

Also, I am going to split the Kanji into radicals (where possible). This first one have split into two radicals.

The first is hand, we say it before in Karate. Now, as a radical, it is squished and its top falls off.

The second (right side) means Axe or Catty. A catty is a unit of weight used in China, it is about 500 g. Does it look like an axe?

If you put them together, what do you get?

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by Speaker on Jun 1^st, 2005, 6:59pm

This one when combined, is then paired with the kanji above to give us an activity that children enjoy in Japan, and arouond the world.

The first part means thread, does it look thread like? It also means "one ten-thousandth of a hair", so getting into the nano range.
The second part means clan or family. It can also mean "Mister" if placed after a name.

So, put them together for a family of threads....

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by Speaker on Jun 1^st, 2005, 7:03pm

Okay, the final in a set of three posts. This is the two kanji (each made of two radicals) from above. When paired, they create a word, that is well-known in English.

People might do it in the hope of spreading peace. But, it has also been used in outer space.

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by Speaker on Jun 5^th, 2005, 7:19pm

This one is back to basics. The first three kanji should be pretty easy to figure out. The next three are a bit tougher... Except they mean the same thing. ichi, ni, san...

The difficult kanji for 1 (ichi) can be found on the 10,000 yen bill (ichiman en satsu). That is about 100 dollars or 50 pounds.

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by Speaker on Jun 5^th, 2005, 7:23pm

Here is the whole sequence. Starting, of course, at one.

ichi
ni
san
shi (this is also sometimes yon)
go
roku
shichi
hachi
kyu
ju

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by Speaker on Jun 7^th, 2005, 7:47pm

Now we move onto the higher numbers.
From the left, we have 100, next is 1000, and then 10,000. What are the next two?

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by THUDandBLUNDER on Jun 10^th, 2005, 11:08pm

10⁵ and 10¹²

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by Speaker on Jun 10^th, 2005, 11:12pm

You have one right, but the other seems incorrect. But, it makes me wonder why you know the larger one, but not the smaller. A typo?

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by THUDandBLUNDER on Jun 11^th, 2005, 5:36am

on 06/10/05 at 23:12:33, Speaker wrote:

A typo?

Yeah sorry, I was in a rush.

Bai = 10²
Qian = 10³
Wan = 10⁴
Yi = 10⁸
Zhao = 10¹²

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by Speaker on Jun 12^th, 2005, 5:26pm

hyaku = 100
sen = 1,000
man = 10,000
oku = 100,000,000
cho = 1,000,000,000,000

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by THUDandBLUNDER on Jun 13^th, 2005, 12:21am

Yeah, I forgot you were talking about Kanji, not Putonghua.

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by Speaker on Jun 13^th, 2005, 1:10am

Yeah, I just figured I would put them up for comparison.

Are the stroke counts the same? I have recently been working next to a person who is working in Chinese, simplified and traditional. It is fun to find the variations in the strokes. (well, fun as in "hey that's interesting." Not fun as in "if you stop really fast in front of your friends, you can cover them with the snow that is thrown up from your skis." But, fun none the less.

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by THUDandBLUNDER on Jun 13^th, 2005, 11:04am

Quote:

Are the stroke counts the same?

The symbols of Kanji are borrowed from Traditional Chinese, aren't they?

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by Speaker on Jun 13^th, 2005, 5:17pm

Yes, I think they are borrowed from traditional. But, they have been changed over the years in some cases. And, they are of course different from the simplified. I will try to find some examples.

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by Leonid Broukhis on Jul 5^th, 2005, 7:23pm

Please help me if you can!

In 2 weeks I will have to conduct a puzzle game for which I've decided to prepare a linguistic puzzle dealing with etymology of Chinese characters for chemical elements, but as I went to http://zhongwen.com/ (the only Chinese etymology site I know of) it turned out that it only has the explanations for just a few elements - those for which the characters are ancient: gold is obvious (silver, on the other hand, not so); iron, tin, and copper are very logical, as well as carbon, sulfur, and phosphorus. The site does not explain mercury; is it literally "craftsman's water"? If yes, makes perfect sense.

Although I know that some elements have their characters chosen for purely phonetic reasons (e.g. oxygen is literally "sheep gas", and fluorine is "Buddha gas"), I hope that quite a few have been chosen to hint at the properties or the meaning of their Latin names as well as phonetics. I need about two dozen total. Thanks in advance!

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by THUDandBLUNDER on Jul 6^th, 2005, 11:37am

on 07/05/05 at 19:23:17, Leonid Broukhis wrote:

The site does not explain mercury; is it literally "craftsman's water"?

Mercury is literally 'silver water'.

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by Leonid Broukhis on Jul 6^th, 2005, 12:10pm

on 07/06/05 at 11:37:53, THUDandBLUNDER wrote:

Mercury is literally 'silver water'.

Yes, if you go to http://world.altavista.com/ you'll get exactly that, but in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periodic_table_(Chinese)
a more formal single character symbol is used. Cf. English "quicksilver" and "mercury". Both mean the same, but the official element name is mercury.

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by Leonid Broukhis on Jul 6^th, 2005, 12:19pm

Oh, and bromine must be very funny. Something about a dog there.

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by archibring on Dec 5^th, 2005, 10:30pm

the following word was widely used in world war II in china. can you guess what it means?

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by Speaker on Dec 5^th, 2005, 11:12pm

I can think of a couple.

[hide]Devil[/hide]
[hide]Child that does not resemble his/her parents[/hide]
[hide]Child born with teeth[/hide]

Depending on the situation, I bet all of them were used. What's your meaning. And why? Do you think it had anything to do with the children that were abandoned by the Japanese when they fled after the war?

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by malchar on Dec 18^th, 2008, 6:44pm

It must be [hide]Nazi[/hide]
but to be fair I have just started studying Chinese at college. I'm not sure enough about my history to really understand what Speaker has posted about, though. However, I'm sure that the word was created to match the pronunciation and also mimic the effective meaning, which Speaker has correctly discovered.

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by ThudanBlunder on Dec 22^nd, 2008, 4:52am

on 12/05/05 at 22:30:18, archibring wrote:

the following word was widely used in world war II in china. can you guess what it means?

Well, I know what the Chinese means literally: devil or evil spirit. When talking about the Japanese during the war they were often referred to as 洋鬼子 （yang GUI zi) or foreign devils, just as Brits used to refer to the Germans as the Hun. I suppose GUI zi is just a shortened form of this.

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by BenVitale on May 14^th, 2009, 4:37pm

We read English from left to right horizontally.
Arab cultures the opposite.

I'm curious about Chinese and Japanese languages.

I understand that Chinese/Japanese characters are written in columns that are read from top to bottom and from right to left, or in horizontal lines that read from left to right.

My question: does speaking Chinese or Japanese present an advantage in doing mental calculations?

I read the following article

http://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode.cfm?id=math-the-eyes-have-it-09-05-11

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by Speaker on Jan 16^th, 2012, 5:35am

Hi, nice to be back. Been a long time.
Regarding the question, although it has been a long time since it was asked, I think it could lead to a long slippery slope leading to misleading ideas about how certain cultures may have some advantage in intellectual abilities.
I guess I am kind of just jumping right to the bottom of the slope if anyone wants to discuss it.

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by towr on Jan 16^th, 2012, 8:47am

It seems obvious to me that some cultures have some (let's make this clear, cultural) advantage in some intellectual (or other) abilities. Any culture that values a certain ability will cause it to be developed (practiced) more often and to a greater degree, and that will give it an advantage in that ability.

I suppose a more interesting question is to what extent language influences intellectual ability, since it helps to structure thinking. If you can't easily bring a concept under words, that makes it harder to share and develop and build on. And conversely, if a concept fits very easily, it'll spread and develop more quickly.

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by Speaker on Jan 24^th, 2012, 5:19am

Hi Towr
Can you give me some examples?
Are some cultures very thrifty?
Organized thinkers?
Freewheeling adventurers?
Relaxed even in hard times?

I think that any culture can fill a bell curve, with an equal proportion of great bowlers as well as bad bowlers.

I need to consider the language part...

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by towr on Jan 24^th, 2012, 11:03am

Well, I'm no cultural anthropologist, and it's easy to get caught out by stereotypes.

It's probably easier to give an example for physical abilities than intellectual/mental once, since it's easier to find the numbers for it.
For example, close to home, we Dutch have a disproportionate number of top speed skaters. Just look at the medal count (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Allround_Speed_Skating_Championships). (Though Norway seems to be even better; less than a third as many people, and more medals overall). Of course geography is part of it, we regularly have (had) winters strong enough to freeze rivers and canals and soft enough you could stay out skating. But a greater part, I'd have to say, is plain cultural; it's a national sport with all the benefits that entails (sponsoring, attention, appeal to starting athletes).
That's not that, say, a Jamaican couldn't be a great ice-skater, but the chance they'd consider it is small, the chance they'd find a sponsor is small, the chance they'd find training facilities is small, etc. (But they did enter a bobsledding competition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamaican_Bobsled_Team) once, so it's not entirely out of the question.) They may be just as well suited physically, but many preconditions for success depend on culture.

One intellectual example that comes to mind is chess. There was perhaps no better place to be a chess player than Soviet Russia, and Russia still tops the charts in the number of grandmasters. It helps an ability tremendously if a society appreciates it. US's 1 grand masters per 5 million stands in stark contrast to Russia's 1 per million. And the derision of chess-club members in American highschool TV series (and the culture it's a sign of) probably explain part of that.

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by Speaker on Jan 27^th, 2012, 9:25pm

Nice examples. Everyone can agree, and say, "Those Dutch, they are such fine skaters." But, I think that using that reasoning leads to false conclusions. Are there not also a great number of failed skaters and chess players. You could count the many failed individuals and say, "Those Dutch, they have so many skaters who lose races." (This is a little ridiculous.)

It seems that there is truth in what you say, about certain cultures producing certain talents. But, that argument has been used throughout history to inflate and to degrade cultures (and ethnic groups). So, whenever I hear something like it, I want to refute it.

As your above examples are benign, and even favorable, everyone can agree. It seems logical and correct. But, the next examples will be disrespectful or hateful. Not from you, I hope, but you are a thoughtful and intelligent person.

My reasoning probably needs to be sharpened up. I know that different people in different cultures think and act differently. (And, I guess the next link is that this causes them to develop different talents.) But, there is a link missing. I think that any individual in any culture may develop great skills, but that it is more a reflection on the individual than on the culture.

For example, comparing the chess masters in the USSR and the USA. I think the comparisons should be in people that attempted to learn Chess. Maybe there are 5 times as many people who try to play chess in the USSR, so of course they have 5 times as many champions. This does not directly address your idea, but it is connected.

Connecting this to language. Chomsky said something like, "If a martian were to land on Earth, he would consider all the languages to be the same Earthish." The same I guess could be said of cultures.

So, the great skaters and chess players do not arise from a culture, but from humans that are exposed to and taught those activities. OK, so the exposure comes from the culture? I think there is something more to this, but I do not have it now.

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by towr on Jan 28^th, 2012, 4:25am

I think that is much easier to fail/give up in a society that doesn't support your efforts at developing an ability, so without actually having any numbers to back it up or any better reason than intuition I would guess that, for example, the mean of our bellcurve for speed skating lies significantly higher.
I imagine many chessplayers in the US might stay at amateur level because they aren't given an opportunity to progress to professional levels. Which might actually cause the distribution of ability to not be a bellcurve at all, because there is a barrier there; you'd have one peak at amateur levels, and a small peak higher up for professionals that created/found the opportunity to dedicate more of their time to chess.
(But ultimately, it'd be nice to have some numbers rather than having to use my imagination. So far I've only found that the US has 39 million people that play chess, according to the US chess federation; but I can't find the Russian number anywhere)

There's really two question here:
1) the proportion of people that seeks to develop an ability, and
2) how good those people can become at that.
And I think that in both cases a supportive culture will increase the numbers.

I agree with you that any individual in any culture may develop great skill; but some will find it significantly easier to do so because of the circumstances/culture they find themselves in. If your talent is valued enough in your society to make a living from it this makes a huge difference compared to having to do it as a "hobby". Of course, moving to another country where you can make a living out of it will also level the playing field for you; but it is still an extra barrier to take, and some won't.

Another thing to consider, so you don't take this too much as some kind of cultural determinism: people cause their culture. It's a feedback loop where culture influences the people that make it up and vice versa. If many individuals find a skill important they will make it easier for each other and themselves to develop it further (even if it's just by forming societies, clubs and federations). Culture is not something external to people, but it does have a certain inertia, which spreads it out a bit to following generations (which may or may not take it up and perpetuate the cycle).

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by Speaker on Jan 29^th, 2012, 12:56am

I guess the numbers are important. It would certainly support the idea that a society develops a skill beyond the expertise of another society. I can agree with this, but I guess I worry that people equate a society with an individual within that society.

So, what percentage of the Dutch population are good skaters. What percent are bad skaters. If I meet a Dutchman am I justified to assume that he is a good skater. How often would I be proven wrong?

Then, I guess we should consider good and bad. Perhaps the man I meet, was a good skater, but no long is. Or is working on becoming one, but is not yet. Or, just doesn't care for skating, because the shoes are scarey.

I guess stereotypes are what bother me. So, looking for how a society affects individuals is a different subject.

Also, who decides that a talent is good or bad (advantageous or disadvantegeous). Maybe some societies develop skills that are admired, but actually disadvantgeous. And the opposite, not admired but advantageous.

Title: Re: Chinese/Japanese characters
Post by towr on Jan 29^th, 2012, 1:31am

Yeah, on an individual level culture is pretty meaningless for guessing whether someone is good or bad at an ability; certainly for expertise-level the percentages are pretty low anyway. And even on the level of national achievements you can easily be surprised; for example baseball is not a large part of Dutch society, so I was quite surprised to find out last year we had become world champion.

As for deciding whether a talent is advantageous or not to a society, I think ultimately that's something only future historians can really judge, because it can depend on long-term consequences. A lot of talents are pretty innocuous though; the fate of society likely won't depend one way or the other on chess or skating; unless perhaps we get obsessed and spend all our efforts in perfecting such skills at the cost of everything else.
But things like scientific and technological developments are certainly beneficial in the short term (economically and in terms of welfare), and they do require large investments from a society to get going and keep going. So when in some places they don't even acknowledge the importance of educating girls, or any children at all, that will leave them at a disadvantage.