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Topic: Maximum Verbosity? (Read 2620 times) |
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Icarus
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Maximum Verbosity?
« on: Sep 25th, 2003, 7:45pm » |
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I've run into a problem which may leave me in deep trouble! While updating the Unsolved Hard Problems thread, I was told when I tried to save it that the message was too long. Then it ORDERED me to go back and shorten the post. Since the preamble was rather dated, I deleted it.
But this is INTOLERABLE! As everyone knows, I like to give long rambling posts. How can I exercise my right to put anyone foolish enough to attempt a read to sleep, if I am limited in my loquaciousness? 
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I wonder: Which is larger
When their digits are reversed? " - Anonymous
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SWF
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Re: Maximum Verbosity?
« Reply #1 on: Sep 25th, 2003, 8:05pm » |
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 I am amazed that this is the first time you have run into that problem.
Thanks for updating the unsolved problems thread. I hadn't noticed the update because there was not a "New!" icon there. Ideally the list of unsolved problems should get shorter as we solve them, instead of longer. It grows longer now because the list also includes formerly unsolved problems. You could put your summary of formerly unsolved problems in a different post.
I am also pleased you moved those cryptos out of there, although I don't know where they really belong. I just don't like them. Maybe I feel that way because you can make those problems as hard as you want, and it does not seem worthwhile to try one when there is no way to tell if it is solvable in a reasonable amount of time.
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towr
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Re: Maximum Verbosity?
« Reply #2 on: Sep 25th, 2003, 10:42pm » |
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I'm not sure the problem can be fixed, it depends in part on what the underlying database allows. Most databases limit the size of a text-field (which I'm sure is what is used to save posts in), usually at 4k or 8k or something.
The only solution would be to radically change the forum, and save posts as BLOBs (binary large objects), which afaik are the only unlimited datatypes, but not all databases have that datatype.
So I'm afraid you're likely to have to split very long posts.
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Icarus
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Re: Maximum Verbosity?
« Reply #3 on: Sep 26th, 2003, 3:27pm » |
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There was no "new" because I forgot to do the "post & delete" trick until this morning.
I too was unsure where to put the cryptos, but decided some of them were sufficiently hard for the medium forum. They simply did not fit my concepts of what the hard forum ought to be (but then, neither do some of the problems William put there, and since this is his forum, he is the ultimate judge).
For me the hard forum should be problems which require some "logical insight" to solve. These cryptos are more of a "what is the other person thinking" problem.
I figured I would have to break off the "Change history". I think that next time I update (however many months from now that will be  ), I'll leave the newest entry in the main post and move the rest to another post.
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I wonder: Which is larger
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william wu
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Re: Maximum Verbosity?
« Reply #4 on: Oct 20th, 2003, 3:28am » |
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Argh! Sorry I didn't see this earlier ... for something like this you can just send me an e-mail. Loss of content is a horrible thing. It's not a problem for me to increase the maximum number of characters allowed in a post -- in fact I have just increased the max (which will remain unknown) by 5,000 characters. If you need even more in the future, let me know ... be as loquacious as you want! However, if that day ever comes, I might suggest breaking up the post into two posts; this is because YaBB's performance might be adversely affected if the max value continues to be increased (I will have to find out exactly how YaBB allocates data.) In the future I might be able to install a mod that allows (moderator-only) insertion of posts in the middle of a thread, which would allow your unsolved problem posts to be placed in a contiguous block. Also of interest to me is being able to pick off misplaced posts from individual threads and insert them into other threads.
For the record, I also don't agree with many of the riddle difficulty ratings suggested by the main site. I've just been too lazy/busy to fix it all ... I guess I was more attracted to work on the forum because of the fascinating community dynamic. Ideally one day we will have a database in which riddles are categorized solely by type. Each category will be then be sorted by a difficulty rating that is dynamically determined by averaging the votes of users, perhaps awarding extra weight to the opinions of the top X forum posters.
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| « Last Edit: Oct 20th, 2003, 3:29am by william wu » |
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Barukh
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Re: Maximum Verbosity?
« Reply #5 on: Oct 21st, 2003, 1:29am » |
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on Oct 20th, 2003, 3:28am, william wu wrote:| Ideally one day we will have a database in which riddles are categorized solely by type. Each category will be then be sorted by a difficulty rating that is dynamically determined by averaging the votes of users, perhaps awarding extra weight to the opinions of the top X forum posters. |
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I completely agree with this, William.
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Icarus
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Re: Maximum Verbosity?
« Reply #6 on: Oct 21st, 2003, 5:14pm » |
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I have been thinking about this. One thing I've noticed is that a few forum regulars (including me) dominate the conversations. I think this makes it harder for new people to feel comfortable. Particularly the younger visitors who lack the education we have.
On way of improving on this might be a setup by which initial posters can restrict who gets to reply for a period. Say, (for example only):
- A new thread in the Hard Forum is immediately available to everyone for reply.
- A new thread in the Medium Forum is available to those with rankings of Full member or lower immediately, but Senior Riddlers and Uberpuzzlers are not allowed to reply to the thread for the first week after it is posted.
- A new thread in the Easy Forum is available to visitors, newbies, and junior puzzlers immediately, to Full members and Senior Puzzlers after a week, and to Uberpuzzlers after two weeks.
- Like the Hard forum, the others would be open to everyone.
- Moderators would be able to post to any thread, but would be expected to obey the rules voluntarily for posts concerning the puzzle itself.
This lockout would give the newer members a chance to discuss the puzzle and attempt it themselves before "the experts" can move in and take over. But since the lockout is not permanent, everyone gets a chance to say something.
It probably is not something that could be implemented in YaBB very easily, and the scheme I outlined is just to give the general idea, rather than an actual suggestion. But something like this might make it easier for new people to get involved in the discussions without feeling like they are dodging between the legs of temperamental giants.
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| « Last Edit: Oct 21st, 2003, 5:16pm by Icarus » |
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I wonder: Which is larger
When their digits are reversed? " - Anonymous
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towr
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Re: Maximum Verbosity?
« Reply #7 on: Oct 22nd, 2003, 12:24am » |
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on Oct 21st, 2003, 5:14pm, Icarus wrote:| I have been thinking about this. One thing I've noticed is that a few forum regulars (including me) dominate the conversations. I think this makes it harder for new people to feel comfortable. Particularly the younger visitors who lack the education we have. |
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I think that depends on how the conversation is 'dominated'.. If a new poster doesn't get any replies, that will put them off more imo.. And as long as the answers are hidden it shouldn't stop people from contributing their own solution..
Besides, I've seen plenty of new members rise through the ranks..
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James Fingas
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Re: Maximum Verbosity?
« Reply #8 on: Oct 22nd, 2003, 7:11am » |
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Icarus,
I've been having the same feeling. Perhaps this is turning into a little forum for the few top-ranked members, and the exclusion of all others.
Another way of addressing the problem would be for the top-ranked members to just not post answers to problems they found very easy. This would accomplish the same without invoking the power of YaBB. The problem with this strategy is how to convince those of us who like to post as often as possible to lay off the simple problems. I've been posting comments indicating I have an answer without posting the answer. But this is probably annoying. What do you think?
Perhaps a better strategy is to just kick all the old hands out and let a new crew take over.
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towr
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Re: Maximum Verbosity?
« Reply #9 on: Oct 22nd, 2003, 8:07am » |
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Perhaps we could just ask the new people what they think on the matter (poll perhaps?)..
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Barukh
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Re: Maximum Verbosity?
« Reply #10 on: Oct 22nd, 2003, 8:15am » |
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Probably, I am not legitimated to discuss this since I am not a top-ranked member...
Before posting this, I visited the Members page. It comprises of 23 pages, 50 entries each. Do you know at what page appears the first member who posted:
10 times? Answer: 3
1 time? Answer: 6
0 time? Answer: 9
That is, more than 60% of all the members never submitted a single post! Do you believe this is because a dozen of top-ranked members deliver answers frequently and quickly?
The problem under discussion is IMHO very general: take any public forum on any interest whatsoever and you will almost certainly see the same picture. Is it good? I don't know; but it is certainly natural. Like it is natural for a top-ranked person at any forum to share his/her knowledge with others.
I agree with towr that there's no need to restrict top-ranking members in any way. This wonderful site has enough mechanisms (like text hiding) to make them less dominant.
on Oct 22nd, 2003, 7:11am, James Fingas wrote:| Perhaps a better strategy is to just kick all the old hands out and let a new crew take over. |
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And what would you do instead? I see three possibilities:
1. Do not start any similar forum. This seems unlikely.
2. Start another forum, and make it public. Then, in 2-3 years you will face the same problem.
3. Start an elitistic forum. Then, I think, many members will loose the priviledge to communicate with some intelligent people.
I apologize for my broken English.
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Icarus
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Re: Maximum Verbosity?
« Reply #11 on: Oct 22nd, 2003, 9:03pm » |
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It was not my intention to deride anyone's posting habits BTW. I am merely thinking about what might encourage more people to become involved. I have looked through the pages of the member lists myself, and have wondered at the large number of join-but-do-not-post members here. I have no idea how this compares to other forums.
When every post has an answer immediately available, people who are not hardcore already tend to get lazy and read it right off. Even when they do solve the puzzle themselves, they just check their answer against the posted one, and never post themselves. This leaves them disconnected from our e-community. I would like to draw more of them in. The brainwashing will only become effective if they are involved. 
But do not worry that I am really trying to change things. This was more of a general musing rather than a serious suggestion. Rather like a puzzle, I am tossing out a suggested solution to see what others think!
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I wonder: Which is larger
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william wu
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Re: Maximum Verbosity?
« Reply #12 on: Oct 22nd, 2003, 11:48pm » |
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It is interesting to note that most of these members seem to never be seen again a week after they register. (Not only do they not contribute, but they're simply not around.) This can be witnessed by observing the running "last 10 members" list at the bottom of the main page. It's usually a familiar group. It would be nice if those other members would explain why they decided to cease being part of the community.
Alternatively, you might hypothesize that our dominance is explained by the fact that there's actually just not many other people around here anymore -- that the site isn't that popular, and we're just a small group of friends talking amongst ourselves. However, the following interesting statistic suggests otherwise: I have a running log of any IP address which accesses the forum in the past 24 hours (the log also tracks pages visited, makes a histogram of browsers being used, etc.), and in the past 24 hours there were 516 unique visitors. That's a lot of "guests"!
My hypothesis is that most of these guests simply find the answer to classic problems they're looking for, and leave. You can get some idea of what these guests have been doing by looking at the log of the top 10 and last 10 searches, at the bottom of the search page. As of 10:23 PM 10/22/2003:
Top 10 Searches
1. MARBLE JARS (35) 6. KNIGHT VS. DRAGON (24)
2. POISON DRINKS (35) 7. WHO AM I (22)
3. HOTEL INFINITY (32) 8. mystery matrix (21)
4. EVIL MAYOR (29) 9. LOGICAL SIGNS (20)
5. RIVER CROSSING (29) 10. GLASS HALF FULL (20)
Last 10 Searches
1. knight 6. fork in the road
2. mystery matrix 7. coin machine
3. prime pairs 8. coin machines
4. chain 9. spoiler
5. answers 10. money in book
As for a resolution to this issues, I think it comes down to making visitors feel they can contribute something meaningful to the community, and ultimately educate others in some way. If people feel they have no utility, they will leave. However, I think creating such an atmosphere is woefully difficult to do, given the subject matter of this forum. Firstly, the number of problems we've explored on this forum is gigantic; thus, any old chestnut a random visitor might like to contribute is most likely already here and explained to death from all angles. Secondly, the level of mathematics being cranked out here can be very intimidating to the average netizen.
A drastically different but perhaps more supportive community structure that I've been toying with is to have a real-time massively multiplayer online role-playing game dedicated just to puzzles. Players would begin somewhere with no reputation or possessions. They can move around in some 3D environment, and real-time chat with anyone they see along the way. There are also a few taverns and pubs and those sorts of things. But players make progress in the game by seeking puzzle challenges and solving them. The initial puzzle challenges will be some standard set of relatively easy old chestnuts. For example, newbies might be required to seek out the blacksmith in the west side of town, who is trying to determine which of two rods is iron, and which is magnetite. All of these challenge locations should be manned by several real people, who interact with their customers in an tech-interview style fashion, discussing the problem and giving hints if necessary to lead the interviewees to the solution. At the end of the session, the interviewee gets some base-level number of points for completing the session, plus some variable number of points awarded by the interviewer based on such criteria as 1) how much help did he/she need, 2) how well did he/she express his/her ideas, 3) how keen does he/she seem to be, etc. They may also be awarded certain items which will somehow prove useful later in their journeys, such as a tricolored 3x1 rectangle that will later serve as a hint for a future tiling problem.
With enough points accumulated, players will be allowed to migrate to other cities/islands/ships/companies/countries/planets in this universe, where they will encounter more challenging problems that become increasingly narrow in focus. The countries could have fun names like Combinatoria, Chanceville, Chesstopia, Micro$oft, Whatami, and the Burning Island of Doom. This could be a great way to introduce young people to areas of math they may not get to taste until college (I think Combinatorics and Graph Theory would be fun topics in middle school and high school). The narrowest areas are likely to end up being manned by experts (e.g. professors), whom would delight in both watching young minds attack their subject, and conversing with other experts whom they may not have met if not for the game.
Why would players bother manning puzzle stations when they can explore the universe? Firstly, in a given city, we make it a requirement for each player to man his or her choice of station for some minimal number of interview sessions. Otherwise, the player isn't allowed to leave the city. (It's like a community service requirement.) Thus, any player won't leave a city without mastering at least one or two problems dealing with the subject. Secondly, I think players might find it fun to play an interviewer anyways. I can see how two friends would find it fun to assume the roles of the arab sheikh's two sons, and reenact their snail race dilemma for a traveler stopping by in the desert. Points are also awarded for manning stations -- perhaps there would be two rankings, one for solving puzzles and one for adminstering puzzles. Puzzle administration points can also be boosted when interviewees provide feedback on their interviewers, in the equivalent of comment card surveys.
With sufficient capital and experience, one could even stake out his or her own country. Accumulating the resources for such a costly investment could be expedited by forming alliances with similarly interested puzzlers, and pooling their resources.
Lastly, we need some elements of danger and competition in the game, to retain the cutthroat attitude puzzlers who might easily tire of a lovey-dovey "learning is so cool" atmosphere. To accomplish this, the moderators of the universe could write top-secret problems for a timed puzzle competition that happens maybe twice a year. Players must form teams of maybe three or four to compete. Each country/city could even select three or four people to represent them in the contest.
Also, there might be occasional natural disaster elements that wreck through towns. Tornadoes, tsunamis, godzillas, earthquakes, volcanoes, asteroids, wolf packs, hammer brothers, Matrix agents, time-space continuum ruptures, the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. And the more points you accumulate, the more hints you get about where the next natural disasters might be (locations determined by devious moderators  ), so you'll know whether you should temporarily evacuate. Players caught in the middle of a natural disaster can get severely injured and even die, thereby losing almost all rank and resources. I think this would be really funny! Imagine the discussions and paranoia:
- "Is there any way we can defend ourselves from those damned ninja turtles?"
- "No, sadly we are completely defenseless. Run for your life my child ..."
- "Alas, Professor Icarus was mauled by a bear yesterday in the Forest of Red-Black Trees. He will be dearly missed." 
Random disasters would also force fixtures to move around once in a while.
Well, of course these are just ideas .... wish there was more time in the day. As always, any suggestions or comments are welcome. If anyone really wants to implement this, you should let me know.
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| « Last Edit: Oct 23rd, 2003, 12:02am by william wu » |
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Sir Col
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Re: Maximum Verbosity?
« Reply #13 on: Oct 28th, 2003, 8:09am » |
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An interesting idea, William, but as you said, a mammoth undertaking.
I think most of what I think has been said, but to offer support for the ideas...
Rather than impose a locking-out of members according to rank, could we not appeal to their sense of honour? By making a request, in future maybe, that regulars refrain from posting answers immediately, we may encourage newer members and visitors to contribute.
When a given solution is a little hazy/unclear then maybe they could post an encouragement ("Hey, that's a good idea,") and a challenge ("but...") to the presented solution. I'm fairly immune to criticism – I'm a school teacher after all! – but I can see how some of the corrections might be taken personally by less confident posters. Refutations are a critical component of problem solving, but many people need to be eased into the process; learning to distinguish personal assaults from suggestions for improvement is as much a learned skill as problem solving in the first place.
Another problem is if a puzzle remains unanswered. This could be because the problem is not well thought out, but more likely is that the regulars view it as 'too easy' and others don't know how to make a start. In which case, James' approach is good, of giving hints or some indication to the original poster that the problem has at least been read and appreciated.
As towr mentioned in another thread, where I made suggestions about the ranking system, we are privileged to share with so many fields of expertise. I suspect that the mismatch between number of posts and visitors in William's log files, indicates the general appreciation for all the effort that posters here put in. I believe it is quite natural that the ratio of readers to posters in forums will always be heavily outweighed in the favour of readers. Consider journals; anyone can contribute. Few do, but many read them. This forum, although not exerting the same rigour before each post is made, has an impressive level of refutations and critical thinking applied in follow-ups. In my view, it is as prestigious in its content and diversity as the best journals; and that is owed to the regulars here!
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Barukh
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on Oct 20th, 2003, 3:28am, william wu wrote:| For the record, I also don't agree with many of the riddle difficulty ratings suggested by the main site. I've just been too lazy/busy to fix it all ... I guess I was more attracted to work on the forum because of the fascinating community dynamic. Ideally one day we will have a database in which riddles are categorized solely by type. Each category will be then be sorted by a difficulty rating that is dynamically determined by averaging the votes of users, perhaps awarding extra weight to the opinions of the top X forum posters. |
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So, I decided to undertake this challenge and try to classify problems by type. I started from the "Medium" section, and here's what I've got for the 35 or so problems. The classification types are rather loose. Also, sometimes a problem may be put under several types.
I would appreciate any feedback on this quick effort. Does it make any sense?
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TenaliRaman
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Re: Maximum Verbosity?
« Reply #15 on: Oct 28th, 2003, 12:56pm » |
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I read through the entire post just now and i felt that i should speak something here. This post may be entirely useless but i just want to speak my heart out.
There have been two events in my life which has totally changed the way i see, reason and interpret things in more than one way. The first event was when i joined the discussion forum at www.nrich.maths.org some 3-4 years back and still am a member at the forum. The second event undoubtedly has been the day i joined this site. I really appreciate all the hardwork that goes behind maintaining this site. What actually has influenced me a lot are all the intelligent people that i have come across and i actually draw inspiration from them for my self improvement. The point i want to make is i don't think it would be a good idea to make any sort of barricade on the postings of the top X members around here.
Btw, i actually like the "funland" william describes above.
As for grouping according to subject might be a bad idea. Because i don't think all people coming here have any sor of knowledge of all the branches in mathematics. Some of them might be put off by the topic alone. I agree some sort of classification is reqd but this method of classification may be best avoided.(actually i find no problems with the classification of easy, medium and hard).
Anyways, that's all abt my perspective on this.
--TR
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Speaker
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Re: Maximum Verbosity?
« Reply #16 on: Oct 28th, 2003, 5:12pm » |
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Well, here's my two sense.
I think part of the problem of having more people participate is inherent in riddling. I think that riddling is, in large part, a spectator sport. I meet people occasionally at a pub. Some of us like to exchange riddles, but not all of us. There is the guy asking the riddle, and usually he asks people that know the answer to not give it away.
This request divides the spectators into two groups, those who know and those who don't. (Almost always there are some people that know the answer or have heard the puzzle but cannot recall the answer, but have some idea about the answer.) The people that know enjoy watching the others struggle, and enjoy being the smartest guy in the room, if for only a short time and in only a limited way. The other group are the riddle solvers, they enjoy the mental excercise and the thrill of success.
And, the third group, are just people that like to watch.
I think that all of those groups are represented here. So, as long as people honour the "Don't tell if you already know" maxim (meaning to hide your answers), then a balance will be maintained. But, flexibility is the most important. So, the fewer rules the better.
William's idea of a virtual world for riddles sounds great.
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Icarus
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Re: Maximum Verbosity?
« Reply #17 on: Oct 28th, 2003, 5:13pm » |
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Again, I am not really in favor of gagging people per se, I was just "thinking out loud" about what to do to encourage more people to join in. I particularly agree with William, that those who do not believe they have the opportunity to contribute something of value may hang around for a while, but will eventually move on. While this is okay, I would like the chance to get to know them, perhaps to discuss their views.
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"Pi goes on and on and on ...
And e is just as cursed.
I wonder: Which is larger
When their digits are reversed? " - Anonymous
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Speaker
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Re: Maximum Verbosity?
« Reply #18 on: Oct 28th, 2003, 5:30pm » |
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Icarus, this really is starting to sound like a riddle. How do you communicate in one direction with a person who may answer truthfully, or may answer falsely, or may not answer at all. Then, after communicating, how to you get them to reply?
Like the riddle about synchronizing the attack on the country sandwhiched between two allies.
How about having William put up one of those flashing messages that says joining in is fun. It sounds simple, but a small shove would get X% of people to join in.
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towr
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Re: Maximum Verbosity?
« Reply #19 on: Oct 29th, 2003, 12:06am » |
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Maybe a chat or something like it might help. That way people don't have to be afraid their 'stupid questions' linger about after they've left (which is may be what some group doesn't feel comfortable with).
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Sir Col
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Re: Maximum Verbosity?
« Reply #20 on: Oct 29th, 2003, 3:03am » |
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I think you're spot on with one of the reasons, towr. I am constantly having this battle with my students, to 'have a go', but unless they think it's the right answer they're unwilling to write anything down. To have a permanent record of our mistakes (on the forum), to many people is too much to handle. But visitors and members alike will gain something from reading the dialogue that follows from 'have a go' posts. Whether it's a chat or forum interface, I suspect it's part of human nature, a general unwillingness to suggest something that may be wrong, and there's little we can really do about it.
For that reason, I do not think a chat interface would be a good idea, as people would not benefit from the immortalised learning experience that has been captured in the threads.
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| « Last Edit: Oct 29th, 2003, 3:06am by Sir Col » |
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Rezyk
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Re: Maximum Verbosity?
« Reply #21 on: Feb 29th, 2004, 1:09pm » |
Quote Modify
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Proposal:
Original contributions toward a puzzle solution are assigned a reward:
helpful observation = 10 poins
some progress = 30 points
solution from scratch = 80 points
solution with explanation/proof = 100 points
However, you only get the reward if the contribution is made after the puzzle has been viewed by unique users at least f(your total points) times. f is some nondecreasing function yet to be determined.
This way, frequent puzzle solvers who accumulate many points get a guideline for how long they might wait before posting a solution, and have incentive to focus on older unsolved puzzles. Timid posters will have more incentive to post their progress as it comes instead of waiting for the solution.
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