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Topic: Chess Puzzle 2 (Read 1370 times) |
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ThudnBlunder
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Chess Puzzle 2
« on: Dec 31st, 2009, 1:59am » |
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Create a position where White has a lone king against the Black king and three pawns, it is Black to move, and the result is a draw. No doubled or tripled pawns are allowed.
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Hippo
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Re: Chess Puzzle 2
« Reply #1 on: Dec 31st, 2009, 8:07am » |
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Ke3
ka8 pd3 pf3 ph6
seems to be solution
BTW: Thanks for remembering the Christmas Time 
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| « Last Edit: Dec 31st, 2009, 8:10am by Hippo » |
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ThudnBlunder
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Quote:| BTW: Thanks for remembering the Christmas Time |
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Yeah, they have some good problems.
But f2 followed by h5 and your goose is cooked!
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Hippo
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Re: Chess Puzzle 2
« Reply #3 on: Dec 31st, 2009, 2:15pm » |
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on Dec 31st, 2009, 12:14pm, ThudanBlunder wrote:
Yeah, they have some good problems.
But f2 followed by h5 and your goose is cooked!
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Oh yes, you are absolutely right ... so starting again
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ThudnBlunder
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Re: Chess Puzzle 2
« Reply #4 on: Jan 1st, 2010, 6:24am » |
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on Dec 31st, 2009, 2:15pm, Hippo wrote:
Oh yes, you are absolutely right ... so starting again |
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And today's puzzle by Noam Elkies also looks interesting.
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Three Hands
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Re: Chess Puzzle 2
« Reply #5 on: Jan 2nd, 2010, 7:49am » |
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How about Kg2 : Ka1, pf6, pg3, ph6?
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ThudnBlunder
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Re: Chess Puzzle 2
« Reply #6 on: Jan 2nd, 2010, 9:22am » |
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on Jan 2nd, 2010, 7:49am, Three Hands wrote:| How about Kg2 : Ka1, pf6, pg3, ph6? |
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Do you have a plan in mind? I don't see how the White king can stop the f and h pawns, even without the Black king supporting.
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Three Hands
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Re: Chess Puzzle 2
« Reply #7 on: Jan 3rd, 2010, 8:15am » |
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As a potential sequence of play:
... f5
Kxg3 h5
Kf4 h4
Kf3 - from here, either f4 leads to a fairly simple take and hunt down, or h3 leads to Kg3 and curtains for the pawns.
Then again, I'm nowhere near a grandmaster, so I may well have missed the optimal play for black...
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ThudnBlunder
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Re: Chess Puzzle 2
« Reply #8 on: Jan 3rd, 2010, 8:33am » |
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on Jan 3rd, 2010, 8:15am, Three Hands wrote:As a potential sequence of play:
... f5
Kxg3 h5
Kf4 h4
Kf3 - from here, either f4 leads to a fairly simple take and hunt down, or h3 leads to Kg3 and curtains for the pawns.
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OK, Black needs his king, with which he wins easily.
I can see how one might stop K + 2p, but not K + 3p
eg. Kf1, kh1, ph2, pf3
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| « Last Edit: Jan 3rd, 2010, 8:47am by ThudnBlunder » |
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Hippo
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Re: Chess Puzzle 2
« Reply #9 on: Jan 4th, 2010, 5:36am » |
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I spent a lot of time on this one with no progress .
What I could say is that white either takes in his first move or is stalemated (otherwise there is shorter solution).
Stalemate seems to me is impossible ... in that case white should take two pawns before the black king approaches or the pawns start supporting each other by promoting threat and this seems is impossible, too ...
The last pawn need not be taken, it is sufficient to get to the draw situation as for the a/h pawn. But rather being under the pawn as forcing the opponent to be under the pawn while taking remaining pawns is not promising at all.
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| « Last Edit: Jan 4th, 2010, 5:40am by Hippo » |
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JohanC
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Re: Chess Puzzle 2
« Reply #10 on: Jan 4th, 2010, 1:38pm » |
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What's your opion about
white: Kb2
black: Ka8 a6 b3 d4 ?
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Three Hands
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Re: Chess Puzzle 2
« Reply #11 on: Jan 4th, 2010, 1:41pm » |
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on Jan 3rd, 2010, 8:33am, ThudanBlunder wrote:
OK, Black needs his king, with which he wins easily.
I can see how one might stop K + 2p, but not K + 3p
eg. Kf1, kh1, ph2, pf3
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Main reason I removed the black king from the effective play area - as it takes 4 turns of dedicated movement from his start position before he can protect any of his pieces, the battle's already done before he can get in the action...
As soon as the black king can provide protection/support for a surviving pawn or two, white can only really hope for an error in black's play...
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ThudnBlunder
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on Jan 4th, 2010, 1:38pm, JohanC wrote:What's your opion about
white: Kb2
black: Ka8 a6 b3 d4 ? |
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Yes, I think you've cracked it, Johan! Well done! 
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| « Last Edit: Jan 6th, 2010, 10:00am by ThudnBlunder » |
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JohanC
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Re: Chess Puzzle 2
« Reply #13 on: Jan 4th, 2010, 2:24pm » |
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It's funny that the black king would win if he started in the further away corner.
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Hippo
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Re: Chess Puzzle 2
« Reply #14 on: Jan 4th, 2010, 2:30pm » |
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I am missing something:
0. ... Kb7
1. Kxb3 Kb6
2. Kc4 Ka5
3. Kxd4 Kb4
... it seems to me black wins
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JohanC
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Re: Chess Puzzle 2
« Reply #15 on: Jan 4th, 2010, 3:08pm » |
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on Jan 4th, 2010, 2:30pm, Hippo wrote:I am missing something:
0. ... Kb7
1. Kxb3 Kb6
2. Kc4 Ka5
3. Kxd4 Kb4
... it seems to me black wins |
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Did you look at alternatives to 2. Kc4?
Maybe there are healthier moves?
These pawn endings can be really deceiving...
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ThudnBlunder
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Re: Chess Puzzle 2
« Reply #16 on: Jan 4th, 2010, 3:32pm » |
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on Jan 4th, 2010, 3:08pm, JohanC wrote:
Did you look at alternatives to 2. Kc4?
Maybe there are healthier moves?
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Yes, such as 2. Kb4 first and only then 3. Kc4 (or 3. Kc3 if 2...d3)
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ThudnBlunder
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Re: Chess Puzzle 2
« Reply #17 on: Jan 4th, 2010, 4:07pm » |
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on Jan 4th, 2010, 2:24pm, JohanC wrote:| It's funny that the black king would win if he started in the further away corner. |
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Yeah, amazingly Black wins win his king starting on any square on the chessboard except a8!
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JohanC
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Re: Chess Puzzle 2
« Reply #18 on: Jan 4th, 2010, 5:11pm » |
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on Jan 4th, 2010, 4:07pm, ThudanBlunder wrote:
Yeah, amazingly Black wins win his king starting on any square on the chessboard except a8! |
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And also if the black pawns were further away from their promotion field, black would win.
Such as having the a-pawn on a7 would allow a tempo. And having the d-pawn on d5 would allow the king to defend that pawn just in time.
Very subtle differences change the panaroma completely.
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Hippo
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Re: Chess Puzzle 2
« Reply #19 on: Jan 4th, 2010, 11:47pm » |
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Good job JohanC
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ThudnBlunder
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Re: Chess Puzzle 2
« Reply #20 on: Jan 5th, 2010, 1:37am » |
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But I still can't figure out the main puzzle here.
How can the order of the first three moves change anything?
And the White knights on a3 and b1 seem to deny any stalemate.
Any thoughts?
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Hippo
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Re: Chess Puzzle 2
« Reply #21 on: Jan 6th, 2010, 1:07am » |
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As I thing on it ... it seems to me that after black puts queen at g6 with Pf7, Kg8 and as there is no stalemate trick, white should go Kf8 to protect the pawn which allows black to step his king. After several repetitions (may be mirrored) the black king approaches f6. White can sacrify a knight in the process, but than black promotes his d3 pawn and mates with two queens while white has pawn and a knight to prevent the stalemate.
This initial position should be prevented. But with the Qd1+ black has time enough and to prevent the + white looses tempo so black has enough time again. May be white can allow black to have 2 queens, but in that time he should be able to move Qa8 mate. I don't see where white can gain the tempo.
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JohanC
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Re: Chess Puzzle 2
« Reply #22 on: Jan 7th, 2010, 12:57pm » |
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on Jan 5th, 2010, 1:37am, ThudanBlunder wrote:But I still can't figure out the main puzzle here.
How can the order of the first three moves change anything?
And the White knights on a3 and b1 seem to deny any stalemate.
Any thoughts? |
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After reading the clues on that page, my idea is quite simple:
White just does the only sensible moves: advancing his/her f pawn, protecting it with the king. Black brings out the queen. Unlike the situation without the Na3-c2, now the queen can oblige the white king to f8 and use this tempo to slowly let his king come to the rescue.
Now, this slowlyness is the clue: if played well, white can force 50 moves without moving a pawn, which is one of the chess rules permitting to demand a draw.
The reason the order of the first few moves is important, is that white should start with moving the f-pawn and only move his king on the 3rd move, to maximize the time without moving a pawn.
Although I didn't check all the details, this seems to be the only way for the explanation on that page to make sense.
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ThudnBlunder
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Re: Chess Puzzle 2
« Reply #23 on: Jan 7th, 2010, 7:37pm » |
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on Jan 7th, 2010, 12:57pm, JohanC wrote:
Although I didn't check all the details, this seems to be the only way for the explanation on that page to make sense. |
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Yes, this has to be it. How cunning! Well done. Black can force the White king in front of his own pawn every five moves and then move his own king. But the Black king needs 11 moves to reach the 6th rank to help capture the pawn. If White pushes his pawn to f7 first and awaits the check, I think Black needs 7 more moves to force the king to f8 for the first time.
So after 1.f6 Qb3 (1...Qc2 is also playable)
2. f7 Qd1+
we have
9. Kf8 Ka4
and
14. Kf8 Kb3
and
19. Kf8 Kb2
and
24. Kf8 Kc1
and
29. Kf8 Kd1
and
34. Kf8 Ke1
and
39. Kf8 Kf2
and
44. Kf8 Kf3
and
49. Kf8 Kf4
and
54. Kf8 Kf5
and (if the Black king is at e6)
55. Kg7 Qg6+
56. Kf8 Ke6
57. Ke8 Qxf7 and 55 moves have been played since 2. f7
Playing a different move order wastes only one move and so I don't see how one move order saves the day by the 50-move rule and another doesn't. There must be something else to it . Maybe my counting is out by a few?
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| « Last Edit: Jan 8th, 2010, 4:38am by ThudnBlunder » |
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ThudnBlunder
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Re: Chess Puzzle 2
« Reply #24 on: Jan 8th, 2010, 4:39am » |
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Anyway, Johan and Hippo, what do you make of this last puzzle.
I think the first move is 1. Rd7
It wins against the obvious 1...Bxd7, anyway.
2. cxd7 Rd8
3. f6 etc.
But Black can play 1...Re3 with apparant equality.
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| « Last Edit: Jan 8th, 2010, 4:39am by ThudnBlunder » |
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