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Topic: Beautiful chess puzzle (Read 15011 times) |
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Stefan Kneifel
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White moves and is able to enforce a draw. How does he do that, considering the fact that his position is actually lacking a queen, a knight and a pawn?
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Ulkesh
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Re: Beautiful chess puzzle
« Reply #1 on: Sep 1st, 2003, 5:04pm » |
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Does white hold a gun to his opponent's head and then offer a draw?
Apart from that I have no ideas. I'll admit that I gave up quite quickly and have started a chess program working on the problem. There seems to be no obvious answer, to the program at least; it's analysed everything up to 12-ply, and gone through 4.2 billion positions. Maybe the answer is something too 'stupid' for a computer to do, but somehow forces a draw.
To those who might notice that I've been away for a while (like my sparring partner T&B  ), my exams went well, I've been mostly sitting back and relaxing during the holidays, and I'm (kind of) looking forward to starting my 3rd year of Physics at University!
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Stefan Kneifel
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Re: Beautiful chess puzzle
« Reply #2 on: Sep 1st, 2003, 10:36pm » |
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on Sep 1st, 2003, 5:04pm, Ulkesh wrote:| Does white hold a gun to his opponent's head and then offer a draw? |
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Umm... I don't know if this would be compatible to the Geneva conventions 
on Sep 1st, 2003, 5:04pm, Ulkesh wrote:
Apart from that I have no ideas. I'll admit that I gave up quite quickly and have started a chess program working on the problem. There seems to be no obvious answer, to the program at least; it's analysed everything up to 12-ply, and gone through 4.2 billion positions. Maybe the answer is something too 'stupid' for a computer to do, but somehow forces a draw. |
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I think it's definitely nothing any computer program will be able to solve. (That's why I posted it in the "hard" forum )
Hint: Examine how the pieces got to the squares where they are.
on Sep 1st, 2003, 5:04pm, Ulkesh wrote:
Congratulations! 
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wowbagger
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Re: Beautiful chess puzzle
« Reply #3 on: Sep 2nd, 2003, 3:55am » |
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This is really strange. Black's threats seem to be overwhelming. It should be obvious that this position is not very probable to occur in a real game (according to current rules ), because Black still has all pieces, so very sophisticated manoeuvres are needed to arrive at White's Bb8, Rf8 and Nh8.
Considering the fact that Black's threats seem to be overwhelming, I agree with putting this in the "hard" section.
No progress on my part yet...
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| « Last Edit: Sep 2nd, 2003, 3:56am by wowbagger » |
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Ulkesh
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Re: Beautiful chess puzzle
« Reply #4 on: Sep 2nd, 2003, 5:12am » |
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It seems to me that white must invoke the three-fold repetition rule. I think an exhaustive retrograde analysis will reveal perhaps that a certain position has been reached twice before, and one of white's available moves is to repeat that position, thereby allowing him to enforce a draw...
I've no idea what that move could be at the moment, but I'll have a look
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towr
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Re: Beautiful chess puzzle
« Reply #5 on: Sep 2nd, 2003, 9:56am » |
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? castling maybe
though not as his first move.. (first take out the black queen)
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| « Last Edit: Sep 2nd, 2003, 9:57am by towr » |
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towr
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Re: Beautiful chess puzzle
« Reply #6 on: Sep 2nd, 2003, 10:02am » |
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on Sep 1st, 2003, 10:36pm, Stefan Kneifel wrote:| I think it's definitely nothing any computer program will be able to solve. (That's why I posted it in the "hard" forum ) |
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I've allways meant to program one that could do all these evil puzzles (also help-mate, doublemoves etc).
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Stefan Kneifel
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Re: Beautiful chess puzzle
« Reply #7 on: Sep 2nd, 2003, 10:13am » |
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on Sep 2nd, 2003, 5:12am, Ulkesh wrote:| It seems to me that white must invoke the three-fold repetition rule. |
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That's generally impossible, since one cannot decide whether this position is on the board for the first or the second time.
But: think of other draw rules you could eventually claim
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| « Last Edit: Sep 2nd, 2003, 10:15am by Stefan Kneifel » |
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wowbagger
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Re: Beautiful chess puzzle
« Reply #8 on: Sep 2nd, 2003, 10:15am » |
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on Sep 2nd, 2003, 9:56am, towr wrote:| (first take out the black queen) |
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And how do you think we can achieve that? 
It has to be forced, otherwise Black has too many possibilities to check. So possibly Ulkesh's idea is the right one.
edit: Ok, so it's not about three times the same moves - although it could be, in my opinion.
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| « Last Edit: Sep 2nd, 2003, 10:17am by wowbagger » |
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Stefan Kneifel
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Re: Beautiful chess puzzle
« Reply #9 on: Sep 2nd, 2003, 10:17am » |
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on Sep 2nd, 2003, 10:02am, towr wrote:
I've allways meant to program one that could do all these evil puzzles (also help-mate, doublemoves etc). |
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If you succeed to write a program which can solve this riddle, I'll propose you for the Nobel Prize. Honestly.
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wowbagger
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Re: Beautiful chess puzzle
« Reply #10 on: Sep 2nd, 2003, 10:20am » |
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on Sep 2nd, 2003, 10:13am, Stefan Kneifel wrote:| think of other draw rules you could eventually claim |
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You're not insinuating to check whether both player's time has run out?
So it could have to do with the 50 moves rule.
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wowbagger
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Re: Beautiful chess puzzle
« Reply #11 on: Sep 2nd, 2003, 10:22am » |
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on Sep 2nd, 2003, 10:17am, Stefan Kneifel wrote:
If you succeed to write a program which can solve this riddle, I'll propose you for the Nobel Prize. Honestly. |
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Hm, which one? Peace? 
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Stefan Kneifel
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Re: Beautiful chess puzzle
« Reply #12 on: Sep 2nd, 2003, 10:54am » |
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on Sep 2nd, 2003, 10:22am, wowbagger wrote:| Hm, which one? Peace? |
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Hm... oh... it seems there is none for Computer Science... what a pity...
Ok I'll send you a big parcel with Swiss chocolate instead
But back to the problem: Thudandblunder's thoughts are going in an interesting direction
but: the last move was surely not a5xb4 - can you see why?
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| « Last Edit: Sep 2nd, 2003, 10:58am by Stefan Kneifel » |
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towr
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Re: Beautiful chess puzzle
« Reply #13 on: Sep 2nd, 2003, 10:58am » |
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on Sep 2nd, 2003, 10:17am, Stefan Kneifel wrote:
If you succeed to write a program which can solve this riddle, I'll propose you for the Nobel Prize. Honestly. |
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Well, once we know the answer it is simple to make a program that can give the answer, wether you can consider that solving is another question. But in general I think if it follows the rules of chess it can be solved by a program, as long as it knows the right tricks.
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towr
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Re: Beautiful chess puzzle
« Reply #14 on: Sep 2nd, 2003, 11:00am » |
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on Sep 2nd, 2003, 10:15am, wowbagger wrote:| And how do you think we can achieve that? |
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You can easily shove some pawn in between. At least you'll avoid a quick death, and loosing you're rook before castling. The queen doesn't have to be knocked off the board right away or anything.
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| « Last Edit: Sep 2nd, 2003, 11:01am by towr » |
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Stefan Kneifel
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Re: Beautiful chess puzzle
« Reply #15 on: Sep 2nd, 2003, 11:05am » |
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on Sep 2nd, 2003, 11:00am, towr wrote:
You can easily shove some pawn in between. At least you'll avoid a quick death, and loosing you're rook before castling. The queen doesn't have to be knocked off the board right away or anything. |
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1. c3 Qc3: 2. dc Rg2:+ 3. Kd1 Rf1#
and with 1. d4 death is even faster 
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| « Last Edit: Sep 2nd, 2003, 11:10am by Stefan Kneifel » |
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wowbagger
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Re: Beautiful chess puzzle
« Reply #16 on: Sep 2nd, 2003, 11:25am » |
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on Sep 2nd, 2003, 10:54am, Stefan Kneifel wrote:But back to the problem: Thudandblunder's thoughts are going in an interesting direction
but: the last move was surely not a5xb4 - can you see why? |
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Well, a piece on b4 couldn't have had checked Black, so he wouldn't have captured on b4, but on a1 instead.
So Black's last move was with his Queen or Bishop. At first glance, I'd guess -1. ... Qh7-g7
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| « Last Edit: Sep 2nd, 2003, 11:28am by wowbagger » |
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Stefan Kneifel
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Re: Beautiful chess puzzle
« Reply #17 on: Sep 2nd, 2003, 11:50am » |
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on Sep 2nd, 2003, 11:25am, wowbagger wrote:| Well, a piece on b4 couldn't have had checked Black, so he wouldn't have captured on b4, but on a1 instead. |
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Well, that's not the point. There were probably many silly moves made in order to reach this position
But: think of TaB's words about the sequence the three white pieces have been captured.
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wowbagger
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Re: Beautiful chess puzzle
« Reply #18 on: Sep 2nd, 2003, 12:10pm » |
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on Sep 2nd, 2003, 11:50am, Stefan Kneifel wrote:| There were probably many silly moves made in order to reach this position |
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If silly moves are allowed, it's next to impossible to reconstruct moves. 
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towr
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Re: Beautiful chess puzzle
« Reply #19 on: Sep 2nd, 2003, 12:22pm » |
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on Sep 2nd, 2003, 11:05am, Stefan Kneifel wrote:
1. c3 Qc3: 2. dc Rg2:+ 3. Kd1 Rf1#
and with 1. d4 death is even faster |
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I'm not really good at reading chess-notation, but can't we still castle?
Perhaps just a delay in execution, but the whole game of chess is delay in execution for one side..
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Stefan Kneifel
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Re: Beautiful chess puzzle
« Reply #20 on: Sep 2nd, 2003, 1:26pm » |
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on Sep 2nd, 2003, 12:22pm, towr wrote:| but can't we still castle? |
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Hint: That's the key question to the whole problem
Problem: What to do against Qa1# (Queen to a1 and mate) ?
on Sep 2nd, 2003, 12:10pm, wowbagger wrote:| If silly moves are allowed, it's next to impossible to reconstruct moves. |
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Hm... I don't think so. The rules for retro-analysis in a chess puzzle tell you that you can assume that certain moves were made only if you can prove that they were made; no matter how silly they are, as long as they obey the chess rules.
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SWF
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Re: Beautiful chess puzzle
« Reply #21 on: Sep 2nd, 2003, 11:02pm » |
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All three of the captures must have been made before the bishop arrived at g8. I am guessing that due to the complex sequence of moves required to arrive at this position, it can be shown that it has been 50 moves with no pawns moved since the third capture=draw.
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ThudnBlunder
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Quote:| If silly moves are allowed, it's next to impossible to reconstruct moves. |
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White has just played his 2nd silly move. How did the game go?
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| « Last Edit: Sep 3rd, 2003, 3:57am by ThudnBlunder » |
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Stefan Kneifel
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Re: Beautiful chess puzzle
« Reply #23 on: Sep 3rd, 2003, 2:56am » |
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on Sep 2nd, 2003, 11:02pm, SWF wrote:| All three of the captures must have been made before the bishop arrived at g8. I am guessing that due to the complex sequence of moves required to arrive at this position, it can be shown that it has been 50 moves with no pawns moved since the third capture=draw. |
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Happy proving
I suggest to start with the question, which pawn move must have been the last one.
on Sep 2nd, 2003, 1:57am, T&B wrote:| White to play. Can he win? |
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Sorry, I'm new here... but wouldn't it be better starting a new thread, if you have a new problem?
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ThudnBlunder
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Re: Beautiful chess puzzle
« Reply #24 on: Sep 3rd, 2003, 3:37am » |
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Quote:| Sorry, I'm new here... but wouldn't it be better starting a new thread, if you have a new problem? |
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Threads are often continued in this fashion with similar type puzzles.
But, as no one has replied, I will do as you suggest.
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| « Last Edit: Sep 3rd, 2003, 3:39am by ThudnBlunder » |
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