Author |
Topic: A non-Facebook version of my Numbrosia puzzle (Read 1481 times) |
|
towr
wu::riddles Moderator
Uberpuzzler
Some people are average, some are just mean.
Gender: 
Posts: 13730
|
 |
Re: A non-Facebook version of my Numbrosia puzzle
« Reply #1 on: Jan 1st, 2008, 11:25am » |
 Quote  Modify
|
Level one is rather trivial, and for some reason it won't let me continue to the next level..
Or do you even need to register if you want any progress?
|
|
 IP Logged |
Wikipedia, Google, Mathworld, Integer sequence DB
|
|
|
amichail
Senior Riddler
Posts: 450
|
|
Re: A non-Facebook version of my Numbrosia puzzle
« Reply #2 on: Jan 1st, 2008, 11:42am » |
Quote Modify
|
on Jan 1st, 2008, 11:25am, towr wrote:Level one is rather trivial, and for some reason it won't let me continue to the next level..
Or do you even need to register if you want any progress? |
|
Try clearing the numbrosia.com cookies and try again. It should work now.
BTW, if you register while you still have the cookie under which you played, you won't lose progress.
|
| « Last Edit: Jan 1st, 2008, 12:46pm by amichail » |
IP Logged |
DropZap - a new kind of block elimination game
|
|
|
towr
wu::riddles Moderator
Uberpuzzler
Some people are average, some are just mean.
Gender:
Posts: 13730
|
|
Re: A non-Facebook version of my Numbrosia puzzle
« Reply #3 on: Jan 1st, 2008, 1:18pm » |
Quote Modify
|
Not bad.
Of course it helps I'm top of the board at the moment 
|
|
IP Logged |
Wikipedia, Google, Mathworld, Integer sequence DB
|
|
|
amichail
Senior Riddler
Posts: 450
|
|
Re: A non-Facebook version of my Numbrosia puzzle
« Reply #4 on: Jan 1st, 2008, 1:32pm » |
Quote Modify
|
on Jan 1st, 2008, 1:18pm, towr wrote:Not bad.
Of course it helps I'm top of the board at the moment |
|
You have done quite a few levels. If you don't want to lose that progress, register while you still have the cookie.
BTW, it's funny that I'm not particularly good at my own puzzle...
|
| « Last Edit: Jan 1st, 2008, 1:38pm by amichail » |
IP Logged |
DropZap - a new kind of block elimination game
|
|
|
Grimbal
wu::riddles Moderator
Uberpuzzler
Gender:
Posts: 7527
|
|
Re: A non-Facebook version of my Numbrosia puzzle
« Reply #5 on: Jan 1st, 2008, 2:40pm » |
Quote Modify
|
Thanks for listening for my complaint and implement it as a non-facebook application.
So I had a look. I did up to level 20.
I have to say it is a quite difficult puzzle. It is not difficult to solve, but if you want to optimize the number of moves, you really have to think ahead and find good strategies. I think it is hard to find the optimal solution by computer.
Maybe it lacks a bit a variety. There is nothing new to look forward to.
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
towr
wu::riddles Moderator
Uberpuzzler
Some people are average, some are just mean.
Gender:
Posts: 13730
|
|
Re: A non-Facebook version of my Numbrosia puzzle
« Reply #6 on: Jan 1st, 2008, 3:00pm » |
Quote Modify
|
I must say, it's a very good time waster. As these kinds of puzzles/games go, it does quite well.
|
|
IP Logged |
Wikipedia, Google, Mathworld, Integer sequence DB
|
|
|
amichail
Senior Riddler
Posts: 450
|
|
Re: A non-Facebook version of my Numbrosia puzzle
« Reply #7 on: Jan 1st, 2008, 3:47pm » |
Quote Modify
|
on Jan 1st, 2008, 2:40pm, Grimbal wrote:Thanks for listening for my complaint and implement it as a non-facebook application.
So I had a look. I did up to level 20.
I have to say it is a quite difficult puzzle. It is not difficult to solve, but if you want to optimize the number of moves, you really have to think ahead and find good strategies. I think it is hard to find the optimal solution by computer.
Maybe it lacks a bit a variety. There is nothing new to look forward to.
|
|
You might check back to see how your score changes over time (as the median # moves for most levels changes over time -- at least for a while).
You can also redo levels to try to do better.
BTW, what is there new to look forward to in a popular puzzle such as sudoku?
|
| « Last Edit: Jan 1st, 2008, 3:53pm by amichail » |
IP Logged |
DropZap - a new kind of block elimination game
|
|
|
Grimbal
wu::riddles Moderator
Uberpuzzler
Gender:
Posts: 7527
|
|
Re: A non-Facebook version of my Numbrosia puzzle
« Reply #8 on: Jan 2nd, 2008, 5:41am » |
Quote Modify
|
on Jan 1st, 2008, 3:47pm, amichail wrote:| BTW, what is there new to look forward to in a popular puzzle such as sudoku? |
|
Yeah, I have the same problem with sudoku.
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
SMQ
wu::riddles Moderator
Uberpuzzler
Gender:
Posts: 2084
|
|
Re: A non-Facebook version of my Numbrosia puzzle
« Reply #9 on: Jan 2nd, 2008, 6:16am » |
Quote Modify
|
Registered 3 days ago and already blocked by my office firewall as a "game playing" site -- son of a  ... I'll check it out when I get home.
--SMQ
|
|
IP Logged |
--SMQ
|
|
|
mikedagr8
Uberpuzzler
A rich man is one who is content; not wealthy.
Gender:
Posts: 1105
|
|
Re: A non-Facebook version of my Numbrosia puzzle
« Reply #10 on: Jan 2nd, 2008, 6:30am » |
Quote Modify
|
I do not wish to lose my progress. The site is great, and much better than the Facebook version I believe.
Thanks for the fun.  
on Jan 1st, 2008, 1:18pm, towr wrote:| Of course it helps I'm top of the board at the moment |
|
I currently am ranked #1 on each level I have completed, except level 10, but it is 1:40am. It will be redeemed.
|
| « Last Edit: Jan 2nd, 2008, 6:38am by mikedagr8 » |
IP Logged |
"It's not that I'm correct, it's that you're just not correct, and so; I am right." - M.P.E.
|
|
|
towr
wu::riddles Moderator
Uberpuzzler
Some people are average, some are just mean.
Gender:
Posts: 13730
|
|
Re: A non-Facebook version of my Numbrosia puzzle
« Reply #11 on: Jan 2nd, 2008, 10:29am » |
Quote Modify
|
It'd be nice, though, if your best score for a puzzle counted, and not the last one..
|
|
IP Logged |
Wikipedia, Google, Mathworld, Integer sequence DB
|
|
|
amichail
Senior Riddler
Posts: 450
|
|
Re: A non-Facebook version of my Numbrosia puzzle
« Reply #12 on: Jan 3rd, 2008, 9:28am » |
Quote Modify
|
on Jan 2nd, 2008, 10:29am, towr wrote:| It'd be nice, though, if your best score for a puzzle counted, and not the last one.. |
|
This feature will be coming soon.
BTW, could you tell me what happened on level 91? How did you end up doing 1000 moves (most of them being rotating column 5 up)? Did you notice anything strange happening?
|
|
IP Logged |
DropZap - a new kind of block elimination game
|
|
|
towr
wu::riddles Moderator
Uberpuzzler
Some people are average, some are just mean.
Gender:
Posts: 13730
|
|
Re: A non-Facebook version of my Numbrosia puzzle
« Reply #13 on: Jan 3rd, 2008, 9:32am » |
Quote Modify
|
on Jan 3rd, 2008, 9:28am, amichail wrote:| BTW, could you tell me what happened on level 91? How did you end up doing 1000 moves (most of them being rotating column 5 up)? Did you notice anything strange happening? |
|
I selected rotate and kept enter pressed
It's not a defect in your game, but rather in the player  It's really boring to be the first to do a level.
|
|
IP Logged |
Wikipedia, Google, Mathworld, Integer sequence DB
|
|
|
amichail
Senior Riddler
Posts: 450
|
|
Re: A non-Facebook version of my Numbrosia puzzle
« Reply #14 on: Jan 3rd, 2008, 9:34am » |
Quote Modify
|
on Jan 3rd, 2008, 9:32am, towr wrote:
I selected rotate and kept enter pressed
It's not a defect in your game, but rather in the player It's really boring to be the first to do a level.
|
|
It's a good thing I use the median rather than the average for scoring!
|
|
IP Logged |
DropZap - a new kind of block elimination game
|
|
|
amichail
Senior Riddler
Posts: 450
|
|
Re: A non-Facebook version of my Numbrosia puzzle
« Reply #15 on: Jan 3rd, 2008, 9:53am » |
Quote Modify
|
on Jan 3rd, 2008, 9:32am, towr wrote:
I selected rotate and kept enter pressed
It's not a defect in your game, but rather in the player It's really boring to be the first to do a level.
|
|
So this is an easy way to cheat. Create multiple accounts and do very badly in all but one in high levels.
I wonder how I can detect that.
|
|
IP Logged |
DropZap - a new kind of block elimination game
|
|
|
towr
wu::riddles Moderator
Uberpuzzler
Some people are average, some are just mean.
Gender:
Posts: 13730
|
|
Re: A non-Facebook version of my Numbrosia puzzle
« Reply #16 on: Jan 3rd, 2008, 10:34am » |
Quote Modify
|
on Jan 3rd, 2008, 9:34am, amichail wrote:| It's a good thing I use the median rather than the average for scoring! |
|
Yes, indeed. I found that out when I tried an to get 1000 on the first puzzle with an anonimous; I quickly figured this would take entirely too much effort to skew the results (never mind that everyone would benefit equally much from it).
on Jan 3rd, 2008, 9:53am, amichail wrote:So this is an easy way to cheat. Create multiple accounts and do very badly in all but one in high levels.
I wonder how I can detect that. |
|
Well, I don't think you need to worry about it much; not unless someone programs a bot to play the game. It takes too much effort otherwise to get enough results to change the median. Except for puzzles where there's only a few players, but then it takes too much effort to get that high.
As for detecting it, anything over 50 moves is already a bit dodgy, and over several hundreds certainly.
|
| « Last Edit: Jan 3rd, 2008, 10:35am by towr » |
IP Logged |
Wikipedia, Google, Mathworld, Integer sequence DB
|
|
|
towr
wu::riddles Moderator
Uberpuzzler
Some people are average, some are just mean.
Gender:
Posts: 13730
|
|
Re: A non-Facebook version of my Numbrosia puzzle
« Reply #17 on: Jan 3rd, 2008, 10:49am » |
Quote Modify
|
You might consider also giving the average score per level on the leaderboard, that way people can more easily compare their results with others even if they don't do a lot of levels.
|
| « Last Edit: Jan 3rd, 2008, 10:51am by towr » |
IP Logged |
Wikipedia, Google, Mathworld, Integer sequence DB
|
|
|
amichail
Senior Riddler
Posts: 450
|
|
Re: A non-Facebook version of my Numbrosia puzzle
« Reply #18 on: Jan 3rd, 2008, 11:43am » |
Quote Modify
|
on Jan 3rd, 2008, 10:34am, towr wrote:
Well, I don't think you need to worry about it much; not unless someone programs a bot to play the game. It takes too much effort otherwise to get enough results to change the median. Except for puzzles where there's only a few players, but then it takes too much effort to get that high.
As for detecting it, anything over 50 moves is already a bit dodgy, and over several hundreds certainly. |
|
One possibility is to precompute the min # of moves possible for a level and use a scoring system based on how far away you are from that min.
For example, if you take k moves over the min, you might get 1000/2^k points for that level.
|
|
IP Logged |
DropZap - a new kind of block elimination game
|
|
|
Astrix
Newbie
Posts: 37
|
|
Re: A non-Facebook version of my Numbrosia puzzle
« Reply #19 on: Jan 3rd, 2008, 6:15pm » |
Quote Modify
|
So, have you figured out a way to figure out the minimum number of steps?
The next best thing is to create the puzzles manually by running the game in reverse, and counting the steps you took. There might actually be a quicker way to get there, but, unless your creation path is very inefficient, it should be close enough to establish an appropriate difficulty rating for that level.
Personally, I think the program should not only reward you for beating the median, it should penalize you for doing worse than the median. Otherwise, on any level where the median is also the optimum, a player can take a thousand steps and still score the same as the best player.
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
amichail
Senior Riddler
Posts: 450
|
|
Re: A non-Facebook version of my Numbrosia puzzle
« Reply #20 on: Jan 3rd, 2008, 8:16pm » |
Quote Modify
|
on Jan 3rd, 2008, 6:15pm, Astrix wrote:So, have you figured out a way to figure out the minimum number of steps?
The next best thing is to create the puzzles manually by running the game in reverse, and counting the steps you took. There might actually be a quicker way to get there, but, unless your creation path is very inefficient, it should be close enough to establish an appropriate difficulty rating for that level.
Personally, I think the program should not only reward you for beating the median, it should penalize you for doing worse than the median. Otherwise, on any level where the median is also the optimum, a player can take a thousand steps and still score the same as the best player. |
|
I don't have a good admissible heuristic yet. This is starting to look like a major research problem.
The problem with having a penalty is that poor players will see no reason to play.
|
| « Last Edit: Jan 3rd, 2008, 9:34pm by amichail » |
IP Logged |
DropZap - a new kind of block elimination game
|
|
|
towr
wu::riddles Moderator
Uberpuzzler
Some people are average, some are just mean.
Gender:
Posts: 13730
|
|
Re: A non-Facebook version of my Numbrosia puzzle
« Reply #21 on: Jan 4th, 2008, 1:40am » |
Quote Modify
|
on Jan 3rd, 2008, 8:16pm, amichail wrote:| The problem with having a penalty is that poor players will see no reason to play. |
|
If they just get 0 point for scoring below the median, or perhaps even in the lowest 25%, it wouldn't be too bad.
|
|
IP Logged |
Wikipedia, Google, Mathworld, Integer sequence DB
|
|
|
Grimbal
wu::riddles Moderator
Uberpuzzler
Gender:
Posts: 7527
|
|
Re: A non-Facebook version of my Numbrosia puzzle
« Reply #22 on: Jan 4th, 2008, 2:14am » |
Quote Modify
|
There should be a positive score for any level you have completed reasonably well, even if everybody succeeded in it.
What about a linear score of 100 if you have reached the minimum so far, down to 0 if you did the median or (min moves+5), whichever is larger. Any higher number of moves gives 0.
If someone is the first to do a level, he would get easy 100 points, which is an incentive for other to go and beat his score.
The problem: easy level are rewarded too much.
Or there could be a fixed 10 points for reaching the median, plus a bonus if you do better.
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
mikedagr8
Uberpuzzler
A rich man is one who is content; not wealthy.
Gender:
Posts: 1105
|
|
Re: A non-Facebook version of my Numbrosia puzzle
« Reply #23 on: Jan 4th, 2008, 2:33am » |
Quote Modify
|
[quote author=Grimbal link=board=riddles_general;num=1199215270;start=0#22 date=01/04/08 at 02:14:48]If someone is the first to do a level, he would get easy 100 points, which is an incentive for other to go and beat his score.
quote]
If that were the case, towr would have a higher score. It wouldn't be fair to those who are starting. Possibly If you have had a best score on a level you recieve 50, and you go down from there. But I think you should be reqarded for having the minimum number of moves on a level even if someone beats it.
|
|
IP Logged |
"It's not that I'm correct, it's that you're just not correct, and so; I am right." - M.P.E.
|
|
|
Grimbal
wu::riddles Moderator
Uberpuzzler
Gender:
Posts: 7527
|
|
Re: A non-Facebook version of my Numbrosia puzzle
« Reply #24 on: Jan 4th, 2008, 3:06am » |
Quote Modify
|
There are long games and short games.
And there are easy games and difficult games.
For easy games, the difference between minimum and median would be small, for hard games, it would be large.
For short games, the difference between minimum and median would also be small, partly because they are easier, partly because there is less choice.
It is easier to improve the score on long games than in short games.
I think it is reasonable to say that the median should have the same score for all games. It should be positive. The question is how to reward better than average scores. Since the difference between best and median is higher with difficult games, it is reasonable to take into account the difference between moves and median. But since it is easier to improve the score on a long game, it should be divided by the minimum number of moves.
So I'd propose something like:
n: moves, b: best result, m: median
points = A + B·((n-m)/b)2
or 0 if n>m.
where A and B are constants to define.
If half of the people reach the best score, it would be A with no bonus. Either there are not enough results to give a bonus or the level is too easy.
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
|
RIDDLES SITE
WRITE MATH!
Home 
Help 
Search 
Members 
Login 
Register
Reply
Notify of replies
Send Topic
Print