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alien2
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God created men on his image
« on: Apr 14th, 2007, 4:58pm » |
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If God created Adam on his image, then God has a penis as well! What kind of a way is that? I demand an apology! I don't need some God, who has a penis like me to give orders like a general, telling me what to do: don't kill, don't touch your brother's wife, don't do this, don't do that. I won't do not one pushup, or clean the latrine, or not kill somebody, because I don't take orders from one sick, twisted person, with sacred testicles. I don't know about you, but this takes the cake. I am selling my Bible. I don't need it any more. Would somebody like to buy it!? I don't like it no more, but the critique is pretty good. I will sell it for $70.
Btw, if someone here can prove that God hasn't got a scrotum, or buttocks, I will keep my Bible then.
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ThudnBlunder
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Re: God created men on his image
« Reply #1 on: Apr 14th, 2007, 5:09pm » |
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R13
Vprzna, whfg orpnhfr lbh ner tebjvat unvef nebhaq lbhe zbhgu qbrfa'g zrna lbh unir gb gnyx yvxr n p**g.
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| « Last Edit: Apr 14th, 2007, 5:10pm by ThudnBlunder » |
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Grimbal
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Re: God created men on his image
« Reply #2 on: Apr 14th, 2007, 5:44pm » |
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You know, I'll tell you a secret: actually it is man who created God in his image.
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| « Last Edit: Apr 15th, 2007, 1:32pm by Grimbal » |
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alien2
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Re: God created men on his image
« Reply #3 on: Apr 14th, 2007, 5:49pm » |
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on Apr 14th, 2007, 5:09pm, ThudanBlunder wrote:R13
Vprzna, whfg orpnhfr lbh ner tebjvat unvef nebhaq lbhe zbhgu qbrfa'g zrna lbh unir gb gnyx yvxr n p**g. |
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After the above statement, United Kingdom doesn't look so united no more. But at least you got Great Britain.
on Apr 14th, 2007, 5:44pm, Grimbal wrote:| You know, I'll tell you a secret: actually it is man who created God on his image. |
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Clever approach. I don't know what it means, but it sounds clever.
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| « Last Edit: Apr 14th, 2007, 5:57pm by alien2 » |
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Icarus
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Re: God created men on his image
« Reply #4 on: Apr 14th, 2007, 7:06pm » |
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Have you been skipping your pills again?
Actually, I don't blame you for being upset. Who would want to believe in a demented god like that? Fortunately for me, the God I find in the Bible is nothing like that. As for creating man in his image, the usual interpretation of this is that God has three parts: Body, Soul (or Mind), and Spirit. He created man (and woman) to have 3 parts: body, soul (or mind), and spirit. The "Body" of God is considered to be that part which creates and interacts with the physical universe - not necessarily a body as we think of it.
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alien2
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Re: God created men on his image
« Reply #5 on: Apr 15th, 2007, 12:48pm » |
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Sounds good. I am keeping my Bible.
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ThudnBlunder
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Re: God created men on his image
« Reply #6 on: Apr 15th, 2007, 12:53pm » |
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on Apr 15th, 2007, 12:48pm, Iceman wrote:
And keep taking the Tablets. 
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alien2
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Re: God created men on his image
« Reply #7 on: Apr 15th, 2007, 1:33pm » |
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If I drink my pills, I would not be able to create new riddles. All evens all. If geniuses drank pills, there would not be Mona Lisa, Saddam Hussein, Shakespeare, Picasso or me. The dark side is more powerful than the illuminated side. But I will try to dance in the rainbow, instead of dancing below acid rain.
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Icarus
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Re: God created men on his image
« Reply #8 on: Apr 15th, 2007, 6:25pm » |
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Of course, as a christian, I believe that God incarnated a part of himself (the "Body", to be specific) as a man "and dwelt for a while among us, full of grace and truth". This means he had genitals, posterior, and all that entails. That he suffered this and greater indignities freely is demonstration of his love.
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alien2
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Re: God created men on his image
« Reply #9 on: Apr 15th, 2007, 7:28pm » |
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I am selling my Bible again. 1st you say something beautiful, and then you bring me down. Some call that sadism, you know. I am a gentle person, a poet, as a beautiful flower from the inside, and Freddy Krueger from the outside. Just because I am ugly from the outside, there is no need to tear my romantic heart into little peaces. Leave the elephant man alone. Give me three pillows instead. Right now I have only two. All I ever did was to write riddles. So if you care about me at all, take it back. Take back what you happen to mention in your last post, right above this one. And solve my twin's riddle.
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SMQ
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Re: God created men on his image
« Reply #10 on: Apr 16th, 2007, 5:59am » |
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Sorry, Iceman, but if you're going to keep your Bible, Icarus is right -- you have to keep the whole book, not just the parts you like. Not just the Great Spirit in the Sky, but also the Word Made Flesh -- buttocks, balls, and all.
Some of us find the idea that God would choose to put (part of) himself through all that -- to turn a part of his perfect essence into something so vulgar as a normal man that ate and drank and pissed and farted and cried and crapped and danced and hurt and bled and died just like the rest of us -- that an infinite God would care enough about us ants to become an ant -- beautiful beyond comprehension.
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alien2
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Re: God created men on his image
« Reply #11 on: Apr 16th, 2007, 6:33am » |
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Don't call me an ant. That is communism. Red ants building their little anthill with their little red hands. What kind of a way is that? 1st Icarus brings me down, and then SMQ breaks my heart. What is this, the Red Godfather? I got to tell you, this little rant of mine, it means that, I have a crisis regarding my riddles, that's all. So when one has nothing to contribute, he talks out of that part God, hopefully, still doesn't have. Although, I do have material, right now, for at least 50 riddles, but to write them, and send them, well, I am currently oriented on writing poetry. Not in English, of course. Who can write in English?? Only English. It is a private little big club. If you think that I want to compete with Shakespeare, Byron, Milton, Tennyson, or that Irish bastard Yeats, you have another one coming. Although, I might spread my riddles under your feet, so thread softly, because you thread on my dreams. But that's all I dream. You can forget about the clothes of Heaven. What do you dream of?
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towr
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Re: God created men on his image
« Reply #12 on: Apr 16th, 2007, 6:53am » |
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on Apr 16th, 2007, 5:59am, SMQ wrote:| Sorry, Iceman, but if you're going to keep your Bible, Icarus is right -- you have to keep the whole book, not just the parts you like. Not just the Great Spirit in the Sky, but also the Word Made Flesh -- buttocks, balls, and all. |
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There is quite a bit of room for interpretation though. In as much as I'm religious, I don't consider Jesus a (partial) incarnation of God. Nowhere is it claimed by him he's more a son of God than the rest of us.
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SMQ
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Re: God created men on his image
« Reply #13 on: Apr 16th, 2007, 7:15am » |
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on Apr 16th, 2007, 6:53am, towr wrote:
There is quite a bit of room for interpretation though. |
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Indeed there is, but I don't see that much. From the Wikipedia article on C. S. Lewis (since he puts it so much more elequently than I could):
Quote:In the book Mere Christianity, Lewis famously criticized the idea that Jesus was merely a human being, albeit a great moral teacher:
"I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept his claim to be God. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronising nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to." (Lewis 1952, pp. 43)
According to the argument, most people are willing to accept Jesus Christ as a great moral teacher, but the Gospels record that Jesus made many claims to divinity, either explicitly — ("I and the father are one." John 10:30; when asked by the High priest whether he was the Son of God, Jesus replied "It is as you said" Matthew 26:64) — or implicitly, by assuming authority only God could have ("the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" Matthew 9:6) |
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It seems to me that Jesus did, directly and indirectly (see the account of his baptism for another indirect instance), claim to be the divine, incarnate, Son of God; and it seems to me to take a pretty radical interpretation to understand him otherwise.
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towr
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Re: God created men on his image
« Reply #14 on: Apr 16th, 2007, 8:12am » |
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I would neither say that Lewis put it eloquently, nor that I agree.
Might have something to do with valuing messages over messengers; but I'm not really up for another theological debate at the moment, that's for another time.
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SMQ
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Re: God created men on his image
« Reply #15 on: Apr 16th, 2007, 8:21am » |
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Fair enough -- I've never been one to push a discussion where one isn't desired, or to insist anyone else share my opinions or beliefs -- I only hope to state them clearly when the topic comes up.
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Icarus
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Re: God created men on his image
« Reply #16 on: Apr 17th, 2007, 8:40pm » |
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on Apr 15th, 2007, 7:28pm, Iceman wrote:| I am selling my Bible again. 1st you say something beautiful, and then you bring me down. Some call that sadism, you know. I am a gentle person, a poet, as a beautiful flower from the inside, and Freddy Krueger from the outside. Just because I am ugly from the outside, there is no need to tear my romantic heart into little peaces. Leave the elephant man alone. Give me three pillows instead. Right now I have only two. All I ever did was to write riddles. So if you care about me at all, take it back. Take back what you happen to mention in your last post, right above this one. And solve my twin's riddle. |
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What is this? I tell you something of extraordinary grace and beauty and you call it ugly and sadistic? 
What can be more beautiful than a God who so loved his creation that he was willing to give up his Godhood and experience life just as his creature do? So that he might see things as they see things, and might teach them a little of how to see things as he sees them. So that they might discover that love themselves. And most importantly, so that he might pay the price for their faults, so that they would not have to?
Whether you believe in it or not, this is an extraordinary and beautiful story. And you would call it ugly because he chose to truly become one of us, live as we live, feel as we feel?
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JiNbOtAk
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Re: God created men on his image
« Reply #17 on: Apr 19th, 2007, 10:13pm » |
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on Apr 16th, 2007, 7:15am, SMQ wrote:
Indeed there is, but I don't see that much. From the Wikipedia article on C. S. Lewis (since he puts it so much more elequently than I could):
It seems to me that Jesus did, directly and indirectly (see the account of his baptism for another indirect instance), claim to be the divine, incarnate, Son of God; and it seems to me to take a pretty radical interpretation to understand him otherwise.
--SMQ |
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Is that really true SMQ ? If Jesus is really God ( and I don't mean that in a condescending way ), wouldn't it be easier for him to actually say it ? I have yet to meet a Bible passage in which Jesus said "I'm God", or he instructed the masses to worship him. Of course, he did say I and the father are one ( John 10:30 ), but going through several verses before that, this statement is more of the oneness in decision. ( If I'm not mistaken, the verse before that is "I gave them eternal life, and they would not be taken from my hand. My Father, who is greater than all, no one can take them from my Father's hand. I and the Father are one. " )
Although Icey, I can't say I agree with you either. Faith and religion should not conform to our individual perceptions, rather, we should be the one who conforms to our faith. If not, why believe it in the first place ??
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| « Last Edit: Apr 19th, 2007, 10:15pm by JiNbOtAk » |
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SMQ
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Re: God created men on his image
« Reply #18 on: Apr 20th, 2007, 4:58am » |
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There is always room for interpretation if one is looking for alternate meanings -- language is, by nature, ambiguous -- but Jesus seems to me to be speaking fairly plainly in that passage:
24b"[...] If you are the Christ[Messiah], tell us plainly." 25Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me." [NIV]
And a little later:
36"[...] what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said 'I am God's Son'? 37Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. 38But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may learn and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." [NIV]
I freely admit that I have a strong bais -- because I have chosen to be a Christian -- in that I tend to read passages like this one with the assumption that Jesus was attempting to be clear, rather than obscure. With that assumption, he sure seems to be saying: "I am the singular, unique Son of God," doesn't he?
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Sir Col
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Re: God created men on his image
« Reply #19 on: Apr 20th, 2007, 10:23am » |
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on Apr 19th, 2007, 10:13pm, JiNbOtAk wrote:| If Jesus is really God ( and I don't mean that in a condescending way ), wouldn't it be easier for him to actually say it ? |
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And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "My son, your sins are forgiven." Now some of the scribes were sitting there, questioning in their hearts, "Why does this man speak like that? He is blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?"Mark 2:5-7
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."John 8:58
Not Jesus' words, but it couldn't be said any clearer than...
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. John 1:1-3
...and ...
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell.Colossians 1:15-19
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JiNbOtAk
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Re: God created men on his image
« Reply #20 on: Apr 20th, 2007, 8:04pm » |
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on Apr 20th, 2007, 10:23am, Sir Col wrote:
And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "My son, your sins are forgiven." Now some of the scribes were sitting there, questioning in their hearts, "Why does this man speak like that? He is blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?"Mark 2:5-7
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."John 8:58
Not Jesus' words, but it couldn't be said any clearer than...
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. John 1:1-3
...and ...
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell.Colossians 1:15-19 |
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Again, not to nitpick, but just a non-Christian view :
1. Jesus did not forgive them of their sins, rather he told them their sins are forgiven, since they now have faith. I don't think you have to be God to do that, just his messenger would suffice.
2. Before Abraham was, I am. Hmm, again this does not mean that he is God, it's just that before Abraham was, Jesus was with God. It could mean God created Jesus first, before Abraham.
3. Among the most famous of argument, although sadly it was not in the Master's own word. But the 2nd verse stressed that he was in the beginning with God. If in the beginning he was God ( which supposedly is true, since he did not yet come down to earth ), why doesn't it say so ? The verse only tells us that Jesus is with God, which is true if he was one of His creations.
4. From Colossians, the 15th verse says that "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation." He is but an image, on top of that he is the first among all creation. If Jesus was created by God, how is it possible that he is God ?
I would like to stress that these arguments are not meant to be offensive, but more of an outsider's view of the Christian religion.
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Icarus
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Re: God created men on his image
« Reply #21 on: Apr 20th, 2007, 9:26pm » |
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on Apr 20th, 2007, 8:04pm, JiNbOtAk wrote:| 1. Jesus did not forgive them of their sins, rather he told them their sins are forgiven, since they now have faith. I don't think you have to be God to do that, just his messenger would suffice. |
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No. That misunderstands the Jewish religion of that time, as can be seen in story itself. It is not christians who are saying that Jesus is acting like God here. It is his Jewish contemporaries. And they are upset by it.
Quote:| 2. Before Abraham was, I am. Hmm, again this does not mean that he is God, it's just that before Abraham was, Jesus was with God. It could mean God created Jesus first, before Abraham. |
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If that were the case, he would of said, "before Abraham was, I was". The non-grammatical use of "I am" is an obvious taking of God's name ("I am", from the story of Moses and the Burning Bush) upon himself. Again, we can be sure that this is not just our mis-interpreting the statement, because the Jews he was speaking to immediately recognized it as such. Their response was to try to stone him for blasphemy.
Quote:| 3. Among the most famous of argument, although sadly it was not in the Master's own word. But the 2nd verse stressed that he was in the beginning with God. If in the beginning he was God ( which supposedly is true, since he did not yet come down to earth ), why doesn't it say so ? The verse only tells us that Jesus is with God, which is true if he was one of His creations. |
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It does say so! Right there! "And the Word was God". He both was God and was with God. See my original post in this thread for an explanation of how he was both.
Quote:| 4. From Colossians, the 15th verse says that "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation." He is but an image, on top of that he is the first among all creation. If Jesus was created by God, how is it possible that he is God ? |
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You are mis-interpreting the phrases here. By "He is the image of the invisible God", Paul does not mean that Jesus is some sort of reflection of God. Rather, when we "look" at God, Jesus is what we can see. When people look at you, they see your outside, not all of you. They do not see your thoughts, they do not see your spirit. What they see is your body. So it is with God. We see God by his interactions with this universe. That interaction is, as I said above, through his "Body", the part of him which became incarnate as Jesus.
This is also why Paul says that all things were created through Jesus. Jesus is the human embodiment of the part of God responsible for creation. As for being first-born, of all the aspects of this creation, including its "supernatural" connection with God, the aspect that existed first, from which all of creation sprang, was that connection with God - His Body. Jesus cannot have been part of that creation, for the verse says that all things were created through him. He could not have been created through himself. Neither could he be before all things if he himself is one of the things.
Quote:| I would like to stress that these arguments are not meant to be offensive, but more of an outsider's view of the Christian religion. |
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Those who are ignorant of a culture cannot be truly offensive to it, because anything they say springs from lack of knowledge, not hatred or evil (not to say that those outside a culture can't be hateful or evil, but without knowledge, even the evil hateful ones do not have a means to effectively act on it).
Those who cause true offense are those within the culture who twist and distort it for their own ends.
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Sir Col
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Re: God created men on his image
« Reply #22 on: Apr 21st, 2007, 2:44am » |
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It's always good to question these things, JiNbOtAk. I often wish my own Christian contemporaries would take more time to consider what they believe and why they believe it.
Icarus has dealt with all the points but I will add a couple of extra thoughts.
1. The Greek word used in the verse, "He was with God," is pros. Commonly this word means "towards" and John could have used a different word to mean "with": meta, para, or sun; depending on context and case they mean: with (alongside), with (among), with (in the presence), with (accompanying), but he chose this one for an important reason. Although sun and pros in this context have similar meanings: with (in the presence), pros is more intimate and is best translated to mean intimately together. It probably wouldn't help entering a debate on the divine and human nature of Christ - unless you wanted to - but needless to say, this is not a simple matter. Christ is vere Deus, vere homo (truly God, truly man), and to quote the confession of Chalcedon, Christ "is to be acknowledged in two natures without confusion, change, division, or separation."
2. As Icarus explained, Jesus saying, "Before Abraham, I am," is a reference to the name of God, Yahweh. The phrase "I am" is no grammatical faux pas. Jesus is saying that he is eternally in the present. The past, present, and future are all like the present to Him. He is beyond time.
You will also note in the Colossians passage that Paul writes, "And he is before all things". Once again the subtle use of the present tense - he could have written, "And we was before all things" - but the important point is that he "existed" before anything else existed. He was not created. He is eternal.
You don't have to believe the Bible, but it is consistent and unequivocal on the fact that Jesus is God.
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JiNbOtAk
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Re: God created men on his image
« Reply #23 on: Apr 22nd, 2007, 7:44pm » |
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Good arguments, both Icarus and Sir Col !! I wouldn't say that I believe what you believe, its just heartening to see people who have faith, and is willing to defend that faith.
on Apr 20th, 2007, 9:26pm, Icarus wrote:
Those who cause true offense are those within the culture who twist and distort it for their own ends. |
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Sadly Icarus, your statement is very true.. 
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Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
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