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Topic: a new voting system (Read 647 times) |
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amichail
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a new voting system
« on: Sep 27th, 2006, 3:30pm » |
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From the paper:
"We have presented a new voting system, ThreeBallot, that provides a high degree of verifiability -- voters can verify that their votes are cast as intended, and can check that their vote is included in the final tally. All cast ballots are published, and tampering with votes can be detected.
This is the first time such end-to-end verifiability has been obtained without the use of cryptographic techniques. The principles employed by ThreeBallot are simple and easy to understand."
http://targetyournews.com/?cmd=surf&urlid=656125
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towr
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Re: a new voting system
« Reply #1 on: Sep 28th, 2006, 1:27am » |
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If you want to annoy the elderly, it's a great system
And of course the instruction for filling in won't work. Rules 5 and 6 can't be checked, not without knowing which 3 ballots together form one multi-ballot. And if that's the case, it is useless to have 3. Once you know which 3 go together, you can tamper with the two that weren't copied.
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| « Last Edit: Sep 28th, 2006, 1:29am by towr » |
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amichail
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Re: a new voting system
« Reply #2 on: Sep 28th, 2006, 1:32am » |
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on Sep 28th, 2006, 1:27am, towr wrote:If you want to annoy the elderly, it's a great system
And of course the instruction for filling in won't work. Rules 5 and 6 can't be checked, not without knowing which 3 ballots together form one multi-ballot. And if that's the case, it is useless to have 3. Once you know which 3 go together, you can tamper with the two that weren't copied. |
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Could you elaborate? The checker does see the multi-ballot as a whole -- not three separate ballots.
But yes, one needs to think about average voters. Maybe they just don't care that much about voting to go through this process.
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towr
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Re: a new voting system
« Reply #3 on: Sep 28th, 2006, 3:20am » |
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on Sep 28th, 2006, 1:32am, amichail wrote:| Could you elaborate? The checker does see the multi-ballot as a whole -- not three separate ballots. |
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The paper assumes the checker is fair. But if everything about the voting procedure was fair, you wouldn't need a system to check it. So we have to assume the checker may not be fair, so what might it do? It can record which 3 ballots go together.
So then, what use is it to have 3?
And then, the voter has to copy one of the ballots, so he can check whether his vote was counted. But if we can record which one he copied, we can replace the other two. And he can't be allowed out of the voting office to copy it, because then he could prove to others what he voted, and e.g. sell his vote (which is another concern the system is supposed to counter).
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amichail
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Re: a new voting system
« Reply #4 on: Sep 28th, 2006, 3:25am » |
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on Sep 28th, 2006, 3:20am, towr wrote:
The paper assumes the checker is fair. But if everything about the voting procedure was fair, you wouldn't need a system to check it. So we have to assume the checker may not be fair, so what might it do? It can record which 3 ballots go together.
So then, what use is it to have 3?
And then, the voter has to copy one of the ballots, so he can check whether his vote was counted. But if we can record which one he copied, we can replace the other two. And he can't be allowed out of the voting office to copy it, because then he could prove to others what he voted, and e.g. sell his vote (which is another concern the system is supposed to counter). |
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So why is this paper interesting? It's written by a world-famous security researcher and he seems to think that this is a big deal.
Is security generally all or nothing? Do people care about heuristic security?
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towr
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Re: a new voting system
« Reply #5 on: Sep 28th, 2006, 4:01am » |
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on Sep 28th, 2006, 3:25am, amichail wrote:| So why is this paper interesting? It's written by a world-famous security researcher and he seems to think that this is a big deal. |
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The method has some similarity to that zero-knowledge proof of a soduko solution you posted a while back. It's theoretically interesting, but not ultimately practical for the problem they use to explain it.
Quote:| Is security generally all or nothing? Do people care about heuristic security? |
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I'd say they do. Hence random baggage check at airports. Of course, if you can just bribe the security officers, it won't help against big time criminals.
It's a matter of means. Does your average smuggler have the means to bypass the security? No, they don't. Hence random baggage searches have a use.
Does a government lack the means to rig voting procedures so this method doesn't work? No they don't. If you can't trust the government in the first place, this method does nothing but give a false sense of security (and confuse people with the elaborate voting method).
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towr
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Re: a new voting system
« Reply #6 on: Sep 28th, 2006, 4:22am » |
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Come to think of it, vote-buying is not terribly difficult. You just need a receipt as proof plus the id-number of one of the other ballots. On the receipt-ballot you put you're for-vote, and the other two are either entirely empty, or entirely filled. The buyer can than check on bullitin whether the ballot with the given id is indeed empty or full. And then knwos the receipt truthfully conveyed the vote.
Note that this won't work with regular voting procedures, as the ballots are neither posted nor is a receipt given.
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| « Last Edit: Sep 28th, 2006, 4:22am by towr » |
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amichail
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Re: a new voting system
« Reply #7 on: Sep 28th, 2006, 4:31am » |
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on Sep 28th, 2006, 4:22am, towr wrote:Come to think of it, vote-buying is not terribly difficult. You just need a receipt as proof plus the id-number of one of the other ballots. On the receipt-ballot you put you're for-vote, and the other two are either entirely empty, or entirely filled. The buyer can than check on bullitin whether the ballot with the given id is indeed empty or full. And then knwos the receipt truthfully conveyed the vote.
Note that this won't work with regular voting procedures, as the ballots are neither posted nor is a receipt given. |
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This issue is addressed in sections 5.2.2 and 5.2.3.
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towr
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Re: a new voting system
« Reply #8 on: Sep 28th, 2006, 4:47am » |
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on Sep 28th, 2006, 4:31am, amichail wrote:| This issue is addressed in sections 5.2.2 and 5.2.3. |
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Yes, but not very practically imo. Where it does work to prevent vote-buying, it's at odds with vote-manipulation... Which seems to be the main problem all-round: you have to trust either the voter or the voting-commitee to prevent the other from cheating
Would you check your ballot id if you have to type in a 25 number id? I doubt I would. And if someone does come and complain there receipt doesn't match, how hard will it be to change the bullitin and then convince them they must have mistyped the first time they checked? So it's at odds again with vote-safety.
And even then, though most people can't memorize it, they can always use their mobile phone to copy it, and the entire multi ballot in fact.
If the ID's are under scratch-offs, well. The receipt/copy must come from an scratched scratch-off (you need the id). And all the ballots with an untouched one can be manipulated at will. Same when the ID's are printed by the checker and you only get the one you copy to check. The other are seperated, and again open to manipulation.
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| « Last Edit: Sep 28th, 2006, 4:50am by towr » |
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