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Topic: Mate in 1 (Read 1260 times) |
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ThudnBlunder
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Find the checkmate in 1 move!
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Ulkesh
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Re: Mate in 1
« Reply #1 on: Sep 21st, 2003, 10:21am » |
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...
Mate in 1 requires it to be black's turn. The two moves available to black are Rxa7 to which the correct reply is Rc8#, and Kxa7 to which the reply is b8=N#
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Sir Col
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Re: Mate in 1
« Reply #2 on: Sep 21st, 2003, 3:37pm » |
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What if black played Kxc7? I suppose white could play b8=R#. But whichever way, isn't that checkmate in 2 moves?
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Ulkesh
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Re: Mate in 1
« Reply #3 on: Sep 21st, 2003, 4:31pm » |
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on Sep 21st, 2003, 3:37pm, Sir Col wrote:| What if black played Kxc7? I suppose white could play b8=R#. But whichever way, isn't that checkmate in 2 moves? |
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Sorry, I missed that one. If black plays Kxc7, b7xa8=N# would do the job. It's still one only one move. One move in chess is actually composed of both white and black moving a piece.
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ThudnBlunder
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Checkmate in 1 move!
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wowbagger
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Re: Mate in 1
« Reply #5 on: Sep 22nd, 2003, 9:47am » |
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1. Nxf7+
or
1. ... Nxc2+
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ThudnBlunder
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Re: Mate in 1
« Reply #6 on: Sep 22nd, 2003, 9:56am » |
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Nope.
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wowbagger
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Re: Mate in 1
« Reply #7 on: Sep 22nd, 2003, 10:02am » |
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on Sep 22nd, 2003, 9:56am, THUDandBLUNDER wrote:
Why not? Seems perfectly valid to me. 
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BNC
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Re: Mate in 1
« Reply #8 on: Sep 22nd, 2003, 10:31am » |
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Err... is this a help-mate scenario?
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ThudnBlunder
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Re: Mate in 1
« Reply #9 on: Sep 22nd, 2003, 10:41am » |
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Quote:| Err... is this a help-mate scenario? |
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No.
Quote:| Why not? Seems perfectly valid to me. |
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Do you think I would bother posting such an easy-peasy puzzle, especially one with two solutions? 
Icarus could have come up with your answers, and in half the time! 
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| « Last Edit: Sep 22nd, 2003, 10:49am by ThudnBlunder » |
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Ulkesh
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Re: Mate in 1
« Reply #10 on: Sep 22nd, 2003, 10:54am » |
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Wowbagger, I think... a little retrograde analysis would help. It limits the number of possibilities from what I can tell.
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Sir Col
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Re: Mate in 1
« Reply #11 on: Sep 22nd, 2003, 12:49pm » |
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wowbagger, reading between the lines (and I'm not usually much good at that) I think that T&B is saying, Nope, to your suggestion that both solutions are correct. I think he is being a little sneaky as I think that one of them is correct. However, the purpose is for us to determine which one it must be.
Having said that, could someone please explain these puzzles to me?
Where have the queens gone, and how did the opposing knights get behind line of pawns without being captured?
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| « Last Edit: Sep 22nd, 2003, 12:52pm by Sir Col » |
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Ulkesh
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Re: Mate in 1
« Reply #12 on: Sep 22nd, 2003, 1:06pm » |
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Yes, Sir Col, I agree. I think the only mate allowed is the Black one. Given the current position it's not possible for it to be White's turn.
In answer to your other questions, it's irrelevant how badly either player may have played to lead to the current position (probably done co-operatively), the only important factor is what is possible/legal given the current position. In this case it can be shown simply enough which of wowbagger's initial answers is correct. I think T&B recently posted a puzzle where the method of solution was the same as for this puzzle.
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| « Last Edit: Sep 22nd, 2003, 4:36pm by Ulkesh » |
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BNC
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Re: Mate in 1
« Reply #13 on: Sep 22nd, 2003, 1:45pm » |
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I'd like to start by saying it's the first time I'm trying chess puzzles. The ones I used to see were "white starts and wins, what did he do?", the answer for which would be "Ka1b3". The knight in question would be way out of the "center of attraction", but the answer would go "black immediatlly sees he's doomed and quits". Well, thank-you-very-much!
These puzzles, I can understand (if not solve for now).
And now, my question: I understood from a previous puzzle that a chess move is actualy a move by both players. If that's the case, and it's :black's: turn, he must ignore the possible mate, to allow the other side to complete his move and win. In my book, that's a help-mate, but T&B said "no" to that. Am I missing something?
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| « Last Edit: Sep 22nd, 2003, 1:52pm by BNC » |
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Ulkesh
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Re: Mate in 1
« Reply #14 on: Sep 22nd, 2003, 3:47pm » |
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BNC, I think a bit of confusion may have arisen somewhere along the line here. When T&B says 'mate in 1 move', this literally means mate within one whole move. ie, if it is White's turn, he can mate straightaway without Black being able to respond, but rather than calling it a half move, standard chess definitions call this 'one move', despite it only being part of one whole move. Likewise, 'mate in two, white to play'-type puzzles, don't necessarily mean Black must deliver mate at the end of the second move, as long as mate is delivered (by either side) during the second move. This leads to a few more possibilities when solving chess puzzles.
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Icarus
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Re: Mate in 1
« Reply #15 on: Sep 22nd, 2003, 6:22pm » |
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Despite T&B's taunts, I shall attempt to tackle this - with the help of an official set of rules:
1) For every move, Knights switch the color square they are on. In this position, the black knights are on a square of each color, just as they are at the start. Therefore there have been an even number of black knight moves. Similarly, there have also been an even number of white knight moves.
2) All four rooks have been able at some point to move back and forth between their home squares and the adjacent ones, but no other moves have been possible. The fact that one rook on each side is out of home position indicates that both sides have made an odd number of rook moves.
3) The only other pieces that can possibly have moved are the Kings. White's king is in his starting position. Black's king is in his queen's position. Therefore white has made an even number of king moves, but black has made an odd number.
[therefore] White has moved an odd number of times. Black has moved an even number. Since white starts, it must be Black's move. And thus his move is the one that will mate.
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ThudnBlunder
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Re: Mate in 1
« Reply #16 on: Sep 22nd, 2003, 7:41pm » |
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A model answer, Icarus! 
From now on I must find something else to stump you with. 
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| « Last Edit: Sep 23rd, 2003, 2:46am by ThudnBlunder » |
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Icarus
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Re: Mate in 1
« Reply #17 on: Sep 22nd, 2003, 7:50pm » |
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I doubt that will be a problem. Without Ulkesh's directions, I would still be scratching my head, and pretending the problem didn't actually exist!
Once I saw it as a symmetry problem however, it became familiar territory. 
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wowbagger
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Re: Mate in 1
« Reply #18 on: Sep 23rd, 2003, 2:38am » |
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on Sep 22nd, 2003, 10:41am, THUDandBLUNDER wrote:| Do you think I would bother posting such an easy-peasy puzzle, especially one with two solutions? |
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Not really, but the solution I gave is not completely wrong. One obvious argument is that I wisely said "or", not "and" - so your "Nope" is at least misleading.
I have to postpone giving the other reason, because it's time for lunch now.
Quote:| Icarus could have come up with your answers, and in half the time! |
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Come on, you don't even know how much time it actually took me!
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ThudnBlunder
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Re: Mate in 1
« Reply #19 on: Sep 23rd, 2003, 3:01am » |
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Quote:
Quote:| ...but the solution I gave is not completely wrong. |
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That's right, it is merely wrong.
In my opinion, an answer of 'Correct move OR Illegal move' reveals no understanding of the puzzle and barely deserves a 'Nope'.
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| « Last Edit: Sep 23rd, 2003, 3:07am by ThudnBlunder » |
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wowbagger
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Re: Mate in 1
« Reply #20 on: Sep 23rd, 2003, 6:38am » |
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on Sep 23rd, 2003, 3:01am, THUDandBLUNDER wrote:
Watch your smilies!
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That's right, it is merely wrong. |
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No it's not!
Quote:| In my opinion, an answer of 'Correct move OR Illegal move' reveals no understanding of the puzzle and barely deserves a 'Nope'. |
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You could have just ignored it... But in that case you'd have one post less right? 
on Sep 22nd, 2003, 10:54am, Ulkesh wrote:| Wowbagger, I think... a little retrograde analysis would help. |
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As has become clear by now, this is what T&B intended. This was not asked for, however.
Let me make this very clear once and for all: I'm not a regular chess problem solver, I'm a regular chess player - which is a huge difference as most of those who read this may know. It has always been my view (because nobody told me the contrary) that starting positions in chess problems should be sensible, by which I mean that not both kings can be in check, for example. But even positions with one side having eleven knights shouldn't be ruled out a priori. After all, it's a composed problem, thus the position is often one that is usually not encountered in actual play and may even be inaccessible by legal moves.
As long as there is no indication that the solution should involve some retrograde analysis, I see these as ordinary chess problems. This is the main reason why I am satisfied with my solution(s): "Checkmate in 1 move" was sought, and I found two! I knew that these were not what T&B was really looking for, but my answer fits the question.
(I could relate a story about an exam question involving an ideal gas inside a cube, but moving only along the x-axis. The question was to calculate the pressure on one side of the cube...)
on Sep 22nd, 2003, 3:47pm, Ulkesh wrote:| When T&B says 'mate in 1 move', this literally means mate within one whole move. ie, if it is White's turn, he can mate straightaway without Black being able to respond, but rather than calling it a half move, standard chess definitions call this 'one move', despite it only being part of one whole move. |
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According to the definition, a move is actually "the transfer by a player of one of his pieces from one square to another square, which is either vacant or occupied by an opponent's piece", with the exception of castling. (I know this is in conflict with the common use of language, as when we say that a game took 42 moves.)
The interpretation of "mate in two" is then "checkmate within at most two moves by the mating side", I'd say.
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| « Last Edit: Sep 23rd, 2003, 6:41am by wowbagger » |
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Icarus
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Re: Mate in 1
« Reply #22 on: Sep 23rd, 2003, 5:47pm » |
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on Sep 23rd, 2003, 6:38am, wowbagger wrote:After all, it's a composed problem, thus the position is often one that is usually not encountered in actual play and may even be inaccessible by legal moves.
As long as there is no indication that the solution should involve some retrograde analysis, I see these as ordinary chess problems. |
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I think Wowbagger's got you dead to rights here, T&B. I seem to recall you saying elsewhere (too lazy to go look), that the sensibility or even legality of the initial position is not required in a chess puzzle. By that standard, and without any additional instruction in the original problem, both of Wowbagger's solutions are correct.
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ThudnBlunder
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Re: Mate in 1
« Reply #23 on: Sep 24th, 2003, 4:25am » |
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on Sep 23rd, 2003, 5:47pm, Icarus wrote:
I seem to recall you saying elsewhere (too lazy to go look), that the sensibility or even legality of the initial position is not required in a chess puzzle. By that standard, and without any additional instruction in the original problem, both of Wowbagger's solutions are correct. |
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I was referring to standard mate puzzles.
This was a retro puzzle, as were all the other chess puzzles I have posted.
I also wrote in another thread:
"I don't think it's worth posting boring run-of-the-mill mate-in-x-moves puzzles in this forum."
I certainly don't see any point in posting a standard mate-in-ONE-move puzzle.
Quote:| You could have just ignored it... But in that case you'd have one post less right? |
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Wrong. Happily, I do not share some people's unhealthy fascination with post count.
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| « Last Edit: Sep 24th, 2003, 4:37am by ThudnBlunder » |
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wowbagger
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Re: Mate in 1
« Reply #24 on: Sep 24th, 2003, 5:20am » |
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on Sep 24th, 2003, 4:25am, THUDandBLUNDER wrote:
I was referring to standard mate puzzles.
This was a retro puzzle, as were all the other chess puzzles I have posted. |
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That's exactly the point. It is not obvious that it's a retro puzzle. Maybe forum (and chess riddle) regulars know you well enough by now, but a guest might be really puzzled.
You could have added something like "Find the unique checkmate within one move", although even that is probably not clear enough. I suggest to indicate it when retrograde analysis is expected, even though this may be considered a hint. It will surely help those who have never encountered such problems before.
Quote:| Happily, I do not share some people's unhealthy fascination with post count. |
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I don't know who you mean - I'm feeling quite healthy... *coughs discreetly*
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