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Topic: Family Relations riddle (Read 20983 times) |
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Trandor
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Family Relations riddle
« on: Jul 23rd, 2002, 11:44pm » |
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My maths teacher gave our class this riddle way back when I was in grade 9, and I came up with a different answer to what he had(from a book). I was unable to convince him my answer was logically correct and that the book he had was wrong.
His book said the answer was that he is talking to himself in the mirror. My answer is that he is talking to his son.
I'm wondering what answer everyone else has, and assuming there is one, what the official answer to this riddle is?
Trandor.
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Zen Crane
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Re: Family Relations riddle
« Reply #1 on: Jul 23rd, 2002, 11:53pm » |
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Could he be making a reference to his (non-existent?) nephew?
That's what I came up with (i.e. "my father's son" or his brother who's the father of this man, the nephew in question).
--Tim
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Scott
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Re: Family Relations riddle
« Reply #2 on: Jul 24th, 2002, 12:13am » |
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damn this scares me.
You were 100% correct, the person is the speaker's son.
"Fathers son"- speaker
Therefore, "this person's father"- speaker
Therefore the person being spoken about is the son of the speaker.
Physics and math textbooks (algebra 2 and above) should not be believed - I had a physics teacher in high school that kept a list of errors from our text book... the errors numbered 100+.
Teachers who put that kind of faith in a textbook are ignorant or stupid, and I think either way they hurts students. I'm glad my CS professors in college have known what they talk about.
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Andrew Vit
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Re: Family Relations riddle
« Reply #3 on: Jul 24th, 2002, 1:11am » |
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It would appear that both answers could be correct. In fact, I question the wording of the question:
Does it really matter to whom he is speaking? shouldn't the question really be asking whom he is speaking about?
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James G
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Re: Family Relations riddle
« Reply #4 on: Jul 24th, 2002, 1:12am » |
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Ok, not sure about this, but... Seems to me he is talking _about_ his son, but there is no indication of who this little speech is directed _to_, which was the question (yes?).
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Trandor
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Re: Family Relations riddle
« Reply #5 on: Jul 24th, 2002, 1:30am » |
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Good point, I would argue that the question is worded wrong, and thus my answer is also worded wrong.
So my answer should be "He is talking about his son."
I don't think there is enough information to answer who he is talking to.
Trandor.
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Chuma
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Re: Family Relations riddle
« Reply #6 on: Jul 24th, 2002, 3:26am » |
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If you look closely at the phrasing...
"Brothers and Sisters, I have none" This I am taking to mean that the speaker has no siblings.
"But this man's Father" The person he is referring to's father..
"is *MY* Father's son." If he was referring to his OWN son, then this final phrase would be incorrect as the speaker would be saying that his son's grandfather is his own son. This is obviously wrong.
The solution I would guess is far more straight forward.
EITHER He is talking to his HALF-Brother OR is referring to a holy man (father).
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Trandor
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Re: Family Relations riddle
« Reply #7 on: Jul 25th, 2002, 12:32am » |
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Quote:
"is *MY* Father's son." If he was referring to his OWN son, then this final phrase would be incorrect as the speaker would be saying that his son's grandfather is his own son. This is obviously wrong.
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If I have no siblings then my father's son is obviously me.
So saying "this man's father is my father's son" would be like saying "this man's father is me", and thus I'd be talking about my son.
Trandor
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Rehan
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Re: Family Relations riddle
« Reply #8 on: Aug 23rd, 2002, 12:02pm » |
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Why is it that he can't be talking about himself?
For example: We'll take John as the person who is in question.
"This man's father" - John's father
"is my father's son" - is John's father's son, who is John since John has no brothers or sisters.
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franz ferdinand
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Re: Family Relations riddle
« Reply #9 on: Aug 30th, 2002, 2:06pm » |
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on Aug 23rd, 2002, 12:02pm, Rehan wrote:Why is it that he can't be talking about himself?
For example: We'll take John as the person who is in question.
"This man's father" - John's father
"is my father's son" - is John's father's son, who is John since John has no brothers or sisters.
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Yes, and according to the puzzle, "This man's father" == "my father's son". So, by your reasoning, "John's father" == "John". This cannot be true.
It is simply impossible that the man be refering to himself or anyone other than his son. End of story.
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Rune
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Re: Family Relations riddle
« Reply #10 on: Sep 30th, 2002, 10:17pm » |
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Well here you have:
"my Father's son" which can be substituted by "me" since he has no siblings. So the sentence translates to..
"But this man's Father is [me]"
Looking at this, "this man" translaters to "my son" so now you have:
"But [my son's] Father is [me]." But here's the thing. The subject of this sentence is not "this man" but rather, "this man's father." and looking at the first alteration of the sentence we can see that "But this man's Father is [me], therefore the subject of the sentence is the same [me] refered to on the second part of the sentence. Which is really himself.
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Ravi
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Re: Family Relations riddle
« Reply #11 on: Oct 1st, 2002, 5:15am » |
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The wording is pretty ambiguous.
The correct answer is either a) his son or b) himself.
It all depends on how you choose to interpret the question. Are we supposed to identify who "this man" is or who "this man's father" is?
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Rune
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Re: Family Relations riddle
« Reply #12 on: Oct 1st, 2002, 12:51pm » |
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"Speaker: "Brothers and Sisters, I have none. But this man's Father is my Father's son."
Who is the speaker talking about?"
The question clearly asks, who is the speaker talking ABOUT. Here you have two sentences.
The first one says "Brothers and Sisters, I have none." Reversing this to a more common form, you get I have no brothers or sisters. The subject is I. So in the first sentence he is talking about "I" or himself.
Second sentence he says "But this man's father is my Father's son." Again, "this man" is not the subject, so he cannot be talking about "this man" or his son. He is clearly talking about "this man's Father" or rather, himself. The wording is a bit confusing, but if you simplify it in the way I did in my first post it becomes kind of obvious that in both sentences the subject is himself.
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James Fingas
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Re: Family Relations riddle
« Reply #13 on: Oct 1st, 2002, 1:10pm » |
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I think the original intent of the question was to ask "who is 'this man'".
The wording is ambiguous though, because it leaves open the following interpretation:
"Who is the subject (in the grammatical sense) of these sentences?"
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Rune
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Re: Family Relations riddle
« Reply #14 on: Oct 1st, 2002, 2:06pm » |
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Aye, if the question were asking to identify "this man" then that would be the son but clearly it is not. It is asking for the subject of the sentences.
From dictionary.com on the word subject: "Grammar - The noun, noun phrase, or pronoun in a sentence or clause that denotes the doer of the action or what is described by the predicate."
then you have "But this man's father IS." The verb applies to the noun phrase "this man's Father" so that makes "this man's Father" what is being described.
I still don't see how there can be two answers to this =/
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Jonathan_the_Red
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Re: Family Relations riddle
« Reply #15 on: Oct 1st, 2002, 5:26pm » |
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on Oct 1st, 2002, 2:06pm, Rune wrote:Aye, if the question were asking to identify "this man" then that would be the son but clearly it is not. It is asking for the subject of the sentences.
From dictionary.com on the word subject: "Grammar - The noun, noun phrase, or pronoun in a sentence or clause that denotes the doer of the action or what is described by the predicate."
then you have "But this man's father IS." The verb applies to the noun phrase "this man's Father" so that makes "this man's Father" what is being described.
I still don't see how there can be two answers to this =/
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I don't see how there can be two answers either, I just disagree with you what the answer is.
"This man's vice president was Walter Mondale." Who am I talking about?
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Rune
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Re: Family Relations riddle
« Reply #16 on: Oct 1st, 2002, 7:19pm » |
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The vice president of course, or Walter Mondale. An easy way to tell who you're talking about is to see who the verb applies to. For example, the verb here is "was." So ask your self, "Who was?" The answer would be, this man's vice president.
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Rune
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Re: Family Relations riddle
« Reply #17 on: Oct 1st, 2002, 7:25pm » |
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The confusion seems to be with what the subject is, but you can easily see that "this man's" cannot possibly be the subject because in itself is incomplete. "This man" is not part of the sentence, its just assumed.
This man's Father is me
This man's Uncle is me
This man's doctor is me
This man's Professor is me
Are all these talking about "this man?" All of these are describing "This man's Father, This man's Uncle, This man's Doctor, etc.." therefore making those full phrases the subjects rather than just "This man"
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Jeremy
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Re: Family Relations riddle
« Reply #18 on: Oct 2nd, 2002, 6:06am » |
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You guys are analyzing this WAY too much. It's supposed to be a clever little riddle that rhymes, so when someone says it they sound all sophisticated and clever (i've never really liked rhyming riddles because they normally sacrifice rhyme for meaning). It sounds confusing at first, but either the person who reads the riddle will either figure out the "father's son" trick and be happy with themselves, or be told the answer and say "oh now that's stupid". Either way good job people you've analyzed the riddle enough... and now you're starting to drive it into the ground. 
but i'de like to submit my own alternative answer.... i think
this man could also be talking abouthis daughter.
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Jonathan_the_Red
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Re: Family Relations riddle
« Reply #19 on: Oct 2nd, 2002, 10:00am » |
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on Oct 1st, 2002, 7:19pm, Rune wrote:| The vice president of course, or Walter Mondale. An easy way to tell who you're talking about is to see who the verb applies to. For example, the verb here is "was." So ask your self, "Who was?" The answer would be, this man's vice president. |
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Okay, now who am I talking about?
This man's vice president was Walter Mondale. During his term, Tip O'Neill served as Speaker of the House. Today, many needy families would not have houses if it weren't for him. Kofi Annan of the United Nations has praised his abilities as a peacemaker.
If you answer "you're talking about Walter Mondale, Tip O'Neill, many needy families, and Kofi Annan" you have a very serious problem with English comprehension and you must have a lot of difficulty making yourself understood and/or understanding others. The subject of a sentence isn't necessarily its topic.
I'm sorry if I sound peeved, but I can't believe this is even an issue.
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Rune
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Re: Family Relations riddle
« Reply #20 on: Oct 2nd, 2002, 12:25pm » |
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Heh don't get mad Im not trying to sound as if I know better, just that I really want to get the other side of it  But your approach to it is incorrect (or at least in my view.) Here's why:
Go back to the original definition of what the subject is. This is from a dictionary so im not pulling it out of my ass
"The noun, noun phrase, or pronoun in a sentence or clause that denotes the doer of the action or what is described by the predicate"
Then apply this to your passage:
"This man's vice president was Walter Mondale. During his term, Tip O'Neill served as Speaker of the House. Today, many needy families would not have houses if it weren't for him. Kofi Annan of the United Nations has praised his abilities as a peacemaker. "
Firs tsentence. This man's vice president was Walter Mondale. What is doing the action or being described? This man's vice president.
Second sentence. During his term, Tip O'Neill served as SPeaker of the House. Who is doing the action or being described? Tip O'Neil.
So yes, the PASSAGE is talking about Tip O'Neill. But each and every sentence in that passage is a standalone sentence that can be used somewhere else, so by your logic... If I were to alter yoru passage as so...
"This man's vice president was Walter Mondale. During his term, [Rune] served as Speaker of the House. Today, many needy families would not have houses if it weren't for him. Kofi Annan of the United Nations has praised his abilities as a peacemaker. "
Then take the first sentence and make it a standalone. "This man's vice president was Walter Mondale" Well how can this be.. the same sentence talking about both Rune and Tip O'Neill yet the words are exactly the same. Somethign is wrong here. So yes the passage itself is talking about Tip O'Neil, or This Man. But the sentences alone are not, they're talking about whatever teh subject is. In the two sentences in the riddle, however, you don't have a followup that goes on about someone else. It just ends with that sentence. The first sentence is about himself clearly. The second sentence in itself is also about himself due to subject definition. Nothing is there that would say that its about this man, unlike the passage you present.
Ok that might be a bit complicated so here's what i mean in short. Each one of the sentences in yoru passage is talking about something different. However, due to the way the passage is constructed, the passage itself is talking about Tip O'Neill. The riddle, however, does not. Another fun alteration of the passage would be...
"This man's vice president was Walter Mondale. During [Walter Mondale's] term, Tip O'Neil served as Speaker of the House. Today, many needy families would not have houses if it weren't for [Jonathan_the_Red]. [Rune] of the United Nations has praised [wu's] abilities as a peacemaker. "
What am i talking about now? As you see , the alteration of the passage has changed what you assumed all the pronouns (his he, etc) meant. That's just assumption though. It is a necessary assumption to make sense of language but nonetheless, there is no such passage provided in the riddle, so the only thing you have to go by is the sentence, and its single subject.
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VinceFool
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Re: Family Relations riddle
« Reply #21 on: Oct 3rd, 2002, 9:05am » |
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vincentcote@yahooIt's amazing how such a simple sentence can be so confusing.
Just turn it around: "My father's son <= is => this man's father"
Doesnt't it make the sentence simple and obvious?
Hope it enlightens some of you.
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Jonathan_the_Red
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Re: Family Relations riddle
« Reply #22 on: Oct 4th, 2002, 11:02am » |
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I'm really not in the mood to get bogged down in semantic arguments, so I'll just reiterate: The "subject" of a sentence and the "topic" of a sentence are not necessarily the same. (For the record, all of the illustrative sentences I used above had different subjects, but the topic of them all was Jimmy Carter.)
Consider the following two sentences:
- I ate the sandwich.
- The sandwich was eaten by me.
Apart from being written in different voices, these sentences are semantically identical. Yet they have different subjects. Are you seriously going to assert that they're about different things?
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Joann D.
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Re: Family Relations riddle
« Reply #23 on: Feb 3rd, 2003, 10:00pm » |
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Speaker: "Brothers and Sisters, I have none. But this man's Father is my Father's son."
Who is the speaker talking about?
ANSWER: He is speaking of himself as he looks in the mirror. 
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jwe8k
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Re: Family Relations riddle
« Reply #24 on: Apr 22nd, 2003, 8:53am » |
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I really don't understand how there is any confusion at all.
Speaker: "Brothers and Sisters, I have none. But this man's Father is my Father's son."
Think of it like Jeopardy. They tell you about someone. You have to ask who they're talking about.
But first, since we know that there are no siblings then "my Father's son" is the same as "I". So who are we asking about when we answer "This man's father is I?". The son, obviously.
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